Hypnosis and Wing chun English version

[poulperadieux]

http://poulperadieux.com/2013/01/22/hypnosis-in-wing-chun-english-version/

 

[Argus]

I'm going to be very honest here. It is a good thing to be open minded and polite, especially in a public forum, but I think it is still more important to place value on the truth. Martial arts in particular is a place where many people are mislead, and often subscribe to, and place far too much emphasis on "magic." After watching your videos - in particular your forms, and this video, and after reading your blog, I am concerned that you are being mislead.

Proficiency in any martial art does not come through "magic;" it does not come through tricks or gimmicks like hypnosis or special workouts. As with anything in life, it comes only through good practice and hard work.

Though I realize you deal with forms in the other thread, I will use an example here. In your thread, and on your site, you say that Siu Nim Tau is an exercise, and that its main purpose is to cultivate "power." And indeed, you play it not at all as a place to practice form, structure, energy, or technique, but as some kind of weird and wonderful exercise routine:

In your post, you also assert that:

Following this logic, seems obvious Biu Jee should be taught first.
Than Siu Lim Tao for the power cultivation, and, later, to my point of view, Chum Kiu.

This is equivalent to learning to write the alphabet with huge, distorted strokes in order to give the wrist a better workout. Which is more important? The endurance of my wrist, or my ability to write legibly and with good technique? What advantage does a good wrist give me if I practice writing illegible characters?

Likewise, what advantage does learning Biu Jee - a form that breaks many of WC's rules and principles in order to attempt to recover from serious errors - when one has not even learned to avoid such errors in the first place, and has no concept of proper structure or technique to begin with? You'll be using that Biu Jee quite a lot, and not to good effect I'll wager. It's like building a house without a foundation, and then installing safety features in case it collapses on you.

My honest, truthful advice: quit focusing on the magic, and focus on the foundation.

 

[poulperadieux]

I'm going to be very honest here. It is a good thing to be open minded and polite, especially in a public forum, but I think it is still more important to place value on the truth. Martial arts in particular is a place where many people are mislead, and often subscribe to, and place far too much emphasis on "magic." After watching your videos - in particular your forms, and this video, and after reading your blog, I am concerned that you are being mislead.

Proficiency in any martial art does not come through "magic;" it does not come through tricks or gimmicks like hypnosis or special workouts. As with anything in life, it comes only through good practice and hard work.

Though I realize you deal with forms in the other thread, I will use an example here. In your thread, and on your site, you say that Siu Nim Tau is an exercise, and that its main purpose is to cultivate "power." And indeed, you play it not at all as a place to practice form, structure, energy, or technique, but as some kind of weird and wonderful exercise routine:

In your post, you also assert that:


This is equivalent to learning to write the alphabet with huge, distorted strokes in order to give the wrist a better workout. Which is more important? The endurance of my wrist, or my ability to write legibly and with good technique? What advantage does a good wrist give me if I practice writing illegible characters?

Likewise, what advantage does learning Biu Jee - a form that breaks many of WC's rules and principles in order to attempt to recover from serious errors - when one has not even learned to avoid such errors in the first place, and has no concept of proper structure or technique to begin with? You'll be using that Biu Jee quite a lot, and not to good effect I'll wager. It's like building a house without a foundation, and then installing safety features in case it collapses on you.

My honest, truthful advice: quit focusing on the magic, and focus on the foundation.

Hypnosis isn't magic...

It's seriously studied in medecine and used for over 20 years...
Got a lot of studies under IRMf and PET scan have been conducted and showed a lot of evidence on witch cerebral zones are activated under Hypnosis.
I explain it more in detail in French, but you can find serious references in the Lancet for years or in neoropsychiatrist magazines.

In France, It tends to be developped more and more in obstetric, pain management, and in neuropsychiatry, especially for obsessionnal and compulsive disorders and other stuff.

Seriously, read a bit some medical stuff on hypnosis, and quit watching TV, gives you false ideas on life.
In my video, I'm not showing twilight vampire or soap opera stuff, but clinical techniques, validated, and well studied for a long time for their efficiency in developping various cognitive processes.

The peripheric vision induction is an hell of a tool for Siu Lim Tao training, and combat training, and Hypnosis is a formidable tool to make beginner discover, and explore these states on their own, as I explain a bit in my video.

Hypnosis is not magic, it's serious training and can lead to improvements in learning and teaching chi sao for example, as it allows the student to developp more attention and empathy.

The Way I do Siu Lim Tao is inspired by the way, Kenneth Cheung, student of Leung Sheun, first closed door student of Yip man, does it.
I focused on hard work on the foundations, soft power cultivation and other stuff.

If you don't know these teaching, I won't blame you, difficult to get some intel on this confindential and discrete lineage, though I'm not a reprensentative member of their school, I'm only a Vagabond.

This is equivalent to learning to write the alphabet with huge, distorted strokes in order to give the wrist a better workout. Which is more important? The endurance of my wrist, or my ability to write legibly and with good technique? What advantage does a good wrist give me if I practice writing illegible characters?

Your point of view is not new, already, in french fencing manual, from the XVIIIth century, masters recommanded to put a blade in the noob's hands first, make him do assaults, and refine his skills during the practice, and than doing the refined technique.
At this time, like you, some Italian teachers clamed heresy by hearing such French methods.

That's around this time that French Fencing took a severe leading over the Italians, and the Spanish.

The idea of teaching biu jee first is not mine, comes from a student of the KC's lineage I like to read, and it's quite efficient for the students.

You teach them the foot work, the biu jee, you let them play, you give them sparring, and than, you can propose the boring stuff that gives Wing Chunit's flavor, sucha as Siu Lim Tao.

Footwork first, than foundations, a little every day.
But one need to learn how to move before rooting like a tree, or else, you are just a wooden dummy, or a sandbag, not quite a fighter.

 

[mook jong man]

One of the reasons Bil Gee is not taught first is quite simple.
There are a lot of movements in Bil Gee where the arms are quite extended , if you were to use these applications in a real fight without a prior foundation in Siu Lim Tao or Chum Kiu then they could be used against you in the form of joint locking or other manipulations.

One of the main concepts in Bil Gee is to learn to transmit the power from rotation into the palms and fingers , you can't do that if you haven't developed a decent level of skill in pivoting which is gained from the practice of Chum Kiu.

Further more , to have the best effect and generate the most power in Bil Gee applications they must be done at high speed.
The pivoting and elbow rotation sequences in the Bil Gee form in particular must be done quite fast , if you haven't put the time in and have a firm grasp of the earlier two forms then there is probably quite a good chance you will injure your back.

The forms are learned in a certain order for very good reasons , these reasons become more self evident the longer you train.

 

[poulperadieux]

One of the reasons Bil Gee is not taught first is quite simple.
There are a lot of movements in Bil Gee where the arms are quite extended , if you were to use these applications in a real fight without a prior foundation in Siu Lim Tao or Chum Kiu then they could be used against you in the form of joint locking or other manipulations.

Funny how old fencing manual stuff keep on running in 2013 !!
That's exacly a point I read not long ago : "Do the student realize that they must make the moves shorter in actual fight? The answer was : YES", and it's mine also.

I explain it in this video I made for the forum, after I posted my forms.

Someone said that if you practice the palm strike full extended in the forms, you'll do it like E. Honda in real fights... Not in a dream.

One of the main concepts in Bil Gee is to learn to transmit the power from rotation into the palms and fingers , you can't do that if you haven't developed a decent level of skill in pivoting which is gained from the practice of Chum Kiu.

Yeap, certanly, but practicing Biu Jee early can help you find ideas for fights, early, better than the moves in the other forms.
The power comes later.

Further more , to have the best effect and generate the most power in Bil Gee applications they must be done at high speed.

Nope.
With correct stance, the speed is not htat important, what's important is the timing. The ability to be at the good place, at the better and most apropriate time regarding the situation.

That's not a thing you learn in forms, but in fights. And you must learn it early, beginners should learn it the first day, have a lot of experience when their body realize what the foundations are.

The pivoting and elbow rotation sequences in the Bil Gee form in particular must be done quite fast , if you haven't put the time in and have a firm grasp of the earlier two forms then there is probably quite a good chance you will injure your back.

Nooo, who told you that? Human body is solid, and beginners tend to work at a... beginner pace, if taught correctly.

The forms are learned in a certain order for very good reasons , these reasons become more self evident the longer you train.

That's my point, the more I practice, the more I teach and observe my student's progresses and compare with my own, the more I'm convinced this method is not bad at all, try it if you teach, you'll see.

I was told that, in old times, when you had to teach fast beacause students had to learn fast how to defend or to attack, they were taught biu jee and mook jong first.

Because Biu jee contains the Third rate techniques, the crappy ones, the ones that are easy to understand.

I wrote an article about that here :

http://poulperadieux.com/2012/11/20...rs-biu-jee-secrecy-in-wing-chun-french-video/


Siu lim tao is not for beginners, it's a subtle, build for masters form.
One can be taught stances for foundations, and later siu lim tao.

What's important, in actual fights, is the footwork, power comes from the legs, and the back, not the arms.
And what's important in a fight, is to keep on moving, especially if you are a beginner, and weaker than your opponent.

You can stay rooted and cool when you are a master, but before, just keep on moving little padawan.

 

[mook jong man]

Learning Bil Gee first , is a bit like trying to drive one of these.

When you can't even drive one of these properly yet.

 

[WTchap]

I would agree, generally speaking, that the Biu Tse form should come after Chum Kiu. That said, I read recently that Wong Shun Leung (not my lineage) would often teach students the first three forms, chi sau and part of the dummy form, within the first 18 months of training. He taught BT after CK, but if you are being taught so much, so quickly, it is almost like a beginner learning them in another order/sequence, IMO. So horses for courses. Who am I to argue with the likes of WSL!!!

But for me, BT is best taught after CK for reasons of timing (in relation to the timing involved in bridging/attacking an opponent). In BT applications (in the WT way of things), you are often entering/connecting with the opponent at a 'later' stage of their attack. That is to say, the opponent's attacks are a little bit closer to hitting you when you engage them. Of course, later timing like this has its own risks, and for beginners I think it is better to get them working with a more 'regular sense of timing' first (instinctively, people kinda time their responses at a uniformed pace).

Rather like if I pass you a basketball. When I stand, say 30 feet away from you and throw the ball to you, most people will raise their arms to catch it at the same time (when the ball is in approximately the same place, flying through the air towards them). If they used BT timing to catch the ball (yes, I know how stupid this is sounding), it would mean they raise their arms to catch the ball kinda at the last moment.

For a beginner, if I passed the ball hard and they tried to catch the ball with this 'type' of timing, they'd more often than not catch it with their face.

 

[mook jong man]

Just for a moment lets say we entertain this notion of an innovative new teaching progression and pretend its not too wacky , just for a moment.
If your teaching Bil Gee first , how is the student supposed to spar or even learn Chi Sau when the basic movements of Chi Sau are found in the Sil Lum Tao form.

Tan , Fook and Bong , the key movements of Chi Sau are introduced in the SLT form , but in this guys curriculum he will have them doing Bil Gee and Chum Kiu before they even know what a Bong Sau looks like

 

[poulperadieux]

I would agree, generally speaking, that the Biu Tse form should come after Chum Kiu. That said, I read recently that Wong Shun Leung (not my lineage) would often teach students the first three forms, chi sau and part of the dummy form, within the first 18 months of training. He taught BT after CK, but if you are being taught so much, so quickly, it is almost like a beginner learning them in another order/sequence, IMO. So horses for courses. Who am I to argue with the likes of WSL!!!

But for me, BT is best taught after CK for reasons of timing (in relation to the timing involved in bridging/attacking an opponent). In BT applications (in the WT way of things), you are often entering/connecting with the opponent at a 'later' stage of their attack. That is to say, the opponent's attacks are a little bit closer to hitting you when you engage them. Of course, later timing like this has its own risks, and for beginners I think it is better to get them working with a more 'regular sense of timing' first (instinctively, people kinda time their responses at a uniformed pace).

Rather like if I pass you a basketball. When I stand, say 30 feet away from you and throw the ball to you, most people will raise their arms to catch it at the same time (when the ball is in approximately the same place, flying through the air towards them). If they used BT timing to catch the ball (yes, I know how stupid this is sounding), it would mean they raise their arms to catch the ball kinda at the last moment.

For a beginner, if I passed the ball hard and they tried to catch the ball with this 'type' of timing, they'd more often than not catch it with their face.

Uwwwh, Lucky Wing Chun isn't used to learn Basket ball so !

Try teaching Biu Jee to a beginner, it's easy, easier than to teach Chum kiu.

I think that CK is the most difficult one, as it's the one that makes the bridge between SLT and BJ.

My opinion uh, my students, my school.

 

[poulperadieux]

Just for a moment lets say we entertain this notion of an innovative new teaching progression and pretend its not too wacky , just for a moment.
If your teaching Bil Gee first , how is the student supposed to spar or even learn Chi Sau when the basic movements of Chi Sau are found in the Sil Lum Tao form.

Tan , Fook and Bong , the key movements of Chi Sau are introduced in the SLT form , but in this guys curriculum he will have them doing Bil Gee and Chum Kiu before they even know what a Bong Sau looks like

Ain't new, read the excellent book on the wooden dummy by Karl Godwin from Kenneth Cheung Lineage, it's said that it was used to be taught that way.

Another great man I do respect, but who is not teaching Wing Chun, Su Dong Chen, for example, says forms and stance training are useless, he starts with noob by teaching how to move.

He rejected the traditionnal stuff, and he's one of the most talented martial artist, and heir of traditions of the last century, and still alive.

And, for your point... uh, do you think you cannot teach someone how to stick hands without teaching him the forms? Seriously?

Forms are stuff you work alone, with a teacher, you want to learn a bong, you learn da bong, dammit !:xwing:

 

[Uncle]

Ain't new, read the excellent book on the wooden dummy by Karl Godwin from Kenneth Cheung Lineage, it's said that it was used to be taught that way.

Actually the way it was traditionally taught was you learned all of the forms in the proper order (slt, ck, bj, myj) before even starting chi sao.

Another great man I do respect, but who is not teaching Wing Chun, Su Dong Chen, for example, says forms and stance training are useless, he starts with noob by teaching how to move.

If you teach them to move first they'll never learn the basic method of power generation properly to integrate it with their stance work. SLT teaches power in one dimension, CK in two, BJ in three, and the Jong is 3 + 1 because of the additional footwork.

He rejected the traditionnal stuff, and he's one of the most talented martial artist, and heir of traditions of the last century, and still alive.

I'm sure in your mind that's talent but it's a different system entirely and the two man drill he's showing in one of the videos is a form.

And, for your point... uh, do you think you cannot teach someone how to stick hands without teaching him the forms? Seriously?

Not if you want them to have proper mechanics. Siu lim tao and chum kiu are the foundations of the system.

Forms are stuff you work alone, with a teacher, you want to learn a bong, you learn da bong, dammit !

Forms teach you the proper method of movement, structure, and power and must be corrected by a good teacher.

 

[mook jong man]

And, for your point... uh, do you think you cannot teach someone how to stick hands without teaching him the forms? Seriously?

Yes I do actually , seriously.

 

[poulperadieux]

If you teach them to move first they'll never learn the basic method of power generation properly to integrate it with their stance work. SLT teaches power in one dimension, CK in two, BJ in three, and the Jong is 3 + 1 because of the additional footwork.

Uh... I tried, it works pretty well, and it's faster than the way I learnt it.

The scientist say the bumblebee can't fly, but the bumblebee doesn't know it so it works all the same.
You never know until you try.

I'm sure in your mind that's talent but it's a different system entirely and the two man drill he's showing in one of the videos is a form.

Su dong chen rejected stances overwork, not forms. Actually, his forms are full of micro movements.
And he's very talented yes.

Not if you want them to have proper mechanics. Siu lim tao and chum kiu are the foundations of the system.

That can be taught later, first move, than learn how to build a solid stance.
But, in order to fight, and fight is the real teacher in gong fu, you must know the footwork first, the techniques comes later.

Forms teach you the proper method of movement, structure, and power and must be corrected by a good teacher.

Yeah, I do agree on that one.

 

[poulperadieux]

Yes I do actually , seriously.

Don't you imagine teaching a noob only fight and chisao for 3 months without showing him the forms, because he's got a fight and he must learn quickly?

One of my student follows the tree forms and start to stick the hands pretty well, she started with biu jee and made her first spar with me last week, but she cheated, she's a girl.
She didn't mind learn BJ first, and she finds Chum kiu a pain in the ***.

The real teachers are the students themselves.

 

[Uncle]

Uh... I tried, it works pretty well, and it's faster than the way I learnt it.

The scientist say the bumblebee can't fly, but the bumblebee doesn't know it so it works all the same.
You never know until you try.

I hope you're not dumb enough to believe that rather idiotic footnote.
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/5400/description/Flight_of_the_Bumblebee

Su dong chen rejected stances overwork, not forms. Actually, his forms are full of micro movements.
And he's very talented yes.

Stance is the foundation of footwork. And if you say so

That can be taught later, first move, than learn how to build a solid stance.
But, in order to fight, and fight is the real teacher in gong fu, you must know the footwork first, the techniques comes later.

You're trying to build a tank by strapping a badly build gun onto a wheel. Thee footwork come from the stance training in siu lim tao, THEN the linear movement in chum kiu and biu jee, and only then the chute bo.
And if you believe that fighting is where you get your instruction you may as well give up training anything and just spar for a few hours every day because clearly the system of training is worthless to you.


By the way what ARE your qualifications?

And no one is going to learn to fight well in 3 months whether you teach biu jee first or do it the proper way.

 

[mook jong man]

Don't you imagine teaching a noob only fight and chisao for 3 months without showing him the forms, because he's got a fight and he must learn quickly?

One of my student follows the tree forms and start to stick the hands pretty well, she started with biu jee and made her first spar with me last week, but she cheated, she's a girl.
She didn't mind learn BJ first, and she finds Chum kiu a pain in the ***.

The real teachers are the students themselves.

I feel sorry for your students mate.

 

[poulperadieux]

I hope you're not dumb enough to believe that rather idiotic footnote.
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/5400/description/Flight_of_the_Bumblebee

Yeah I do !

Stance is the foundation of footwork. And if you say so

I do agree, but one can lean, must learn the footwork before being bored by a stubborn teacher in boring and harsh stance work.

You're trying to build a tank by strapping a badly build gun onto a wheel. Thee footwork come from the stance training in siu lim tao, THEN the linear movement in chum kiu and biu jee, and only then the chute bo.
And if you believe that fighting is where you get your instruction you may as well give up training anything and just spar for a few hours every day because clearly the system of training is worthless to you.

By reading you, pure wing chun guys, I wonder how boxers can be soo badasses you don't dare challenge them and they don't even do stance work of forms... Like the Bumblebee.

"George can't hit what his hand can't see." Footwork is the basics, stance comes after, or never for some guys.

This Bumblebee didn't know siu lim tao, but some say he was the greatest, and he could fly, also.

By the way what ARE your qualifications?

Tell yours first, question of courtesy.

And no one is going to learn to fight well in 3 months whether you teach biu jee first or do it the proper way.

I started my first fight after 3 or 4 months, didn't end so bad.
Was fun.

 

[poulperadieux]

I feel sorry for your students mate.

Stay polite, or tell me where you teach, I do travel a lot !

 

[Uncle]

Yeah I do !

Then you sir are a fool. Good day.

I do agree, but one can lean, must learn the footwork before being bored by a stubborn teacher in boring and harsh stance work.

If you can't endure what is required of you, if you cannot complete something more simple (siu lim tao) you can never grasp what is more ccomplex in the system (chum kiu, biu jee, the mook jong, and baat jaam do)

By reading you, pure wing chun guys, I wonder how boxers can be soo badasses you don't dare challenge them and they don't even do stance work of forms... Like the Bumblebee.

Actually I do box and do bjj and mma training.

"George can't hit what his hand can't see." Footwork is the basics, stance comes after, or never for some guys.

If you can't even stand you have no business trying to walk little one.

Tell yours first, question of courtesy.

You sir are being evasive in an attempt to hide your lack of qualifications. I asked you for yours. If you have nothing to hide please enlighten me as to what they are.

I started my first fight after 3 or 4 months, didn't end so bad.
Was fun.

Your opponent must have been terrible.

 

[poulperadieux]

This guy didn't know siu lim tao, never heard of Yi Chuan or Yinh Yi, but he knows the skip step footwork, how to hit fast and accurately with shoulder relaxed and he live in a faster space time dimension than his opponent.


What a waste if he was taught Wing Chun.