Hypnosis and Wing chun English version

[poulperadieux]

I happen to enjoy all the "boring" stuff. It is what makes the "fun" stuff work correctly. Could you get the "fun" stuff to work without the "boring" stuff...maybe. To train technique and movement without proper structure, root and the depth of knowledge required to make it work is inviting disaster.

Please...

Stop reading only the half I write, it's kinda annoying.

 

[poulperadieux]

So, put apart personal attacks and egotic comments, nothing to say on the subject?

 

[geezer]

So, put apart personal attacks and egotic comments, nothing to say on the subject?

OK, regarding that last video, I'll admit that it was late and I started to fall asleep trying to view that hypnosis stuff. So maybe hypnosis works! Or maybe I just have a short attention span. Sorry.


Anyway, Nico it would be helpful if you could share your background or lineage and influences. You've given no information in your "personal profile" and while your forms clearly reflect an Ip Man lineage, they are not performed in a way that is familiar to me. So who have you studied with and what are your influences?

As for myself, I began briefly under an instructor of Augustine Fong and shortly after became a student of Leung Ting for about 12 years. I then stopped training altogether for many years until finally starting up again under my old friend and si-dai Jeff Webb in Austin, TX. and am a member of his "NVTO". I hope that's helpful.

 

[poulperadieux]

OK, regarding that last video, I'll admit that it was late and I started to fall asleep trying to view that hypnosis stuff. So maybe hypnosis works! Or maybe I just have a short attention span. Sorry.

Julia will be so sad hearing your comment, damn this girl is hot n' cool.

Anyway, Nico it would be helpful if you could share your background or lineage and influences. You've given no information in your "personal profile" and while your forms clearly reflect an Ip Man lineage, they are not performed in a way that is familiar to me. So who have you studied with and what are your influences?

I've studied, at first in a former Leung Ting Branch until the 2nd or 3rd technician, before I was in the taekwondo WTF stuff, than I got bored when I moved to Paris by the "teachers" of my lineage than, so I quit the school, I go visit every school of Paris, make some friends, train exclusively outside.

learned my first mook jong routines from à Donald Mak family student, than I got a suppa sayan black teacher of the death for Vinh Xuan, Wan kam Leung Stuff, Yang tai chi and Muay Boran.

I met one of the two Yang tai chi badasses next to my training spot, gave me some tips for free, still friends, he learnt a lot with Yan wing ming or something like that.
Did some Bajiquan with a friend, study alone, Bajiquan is so cool.

Went to the 3rd or 4th technician with a leung ting derivated teacher who taught me nearly for free for 3 or 4 years don't remember, than or at the same time I met Kenneth Cheung and was really moved and interested by his pure badass yin power approach, so changed mine drastically.

Nearly stopped working german leung ting stuff than.

Went to see 3 days free trial at Drago's academy 2 years ago, convinced me I was far, really far from the german approach, too yang for me.

And, I taught outside in parcs for 4 years, inside for a few months, I pass a diploma to become a sports teacher this year.


Professionnaly, I used to be a Doctor 10 years ago, than I became an optometrist, than consultant as a specialist in specialized hard contact lenses for cornea dystrophia, I helped a lot mounting surgery wards and other stuff.

Now I also teach Hypnosis for free in Bars, tend to thrill and amaze people, I'll begin therapy next year after I'll pass a formation in med school as I applied recently.


Or Something like that.

Other questions?

Ah yes?

My Lineage?

I want to keep being respectful and stuff, but... **** Lineages, I'm a ****ing Bohemian.

Voila.


Thanks for Introcducing yourself Geezer.

 

[O'Malley]

Well, I know nothing about WC but I'll give my opinion on that video from a hypnotist point of view.

First, poulperadieux, I guess you usually hypnotize her in French so it's surprising how well she seems to respond to your English suggestions, although you smartly used the snapping of your fingers (which obviously remains the same in every language) as a trigger to induce sleep. This shows that she's really suggestible or that she was trained quite often to respond to you (or that she didn't want to embarass you xD )

The basis of hypnosis is persuading your subject that you can walk the talk. If the induction is done correctly she should feel that her field of vision has bettered (as shown in the video). It's all in her head, maybe it would translate as her being more aware of her surroundings. Whether it really works from an objective point of view or not I can't tell, though. Personally, I would use hypnosis to help the students be more confident (not only in MA but in life as well). Another interesting application of hypnosis would be to induce hyperesthesia to make them more aware of their bodies (maybe during the forms training?).

That being said, there is another part of this thread that I want to react to.

Basically, you're teaching your students a somewhat intermediate form before teaching the basics, right? As an ex water-polo player, I'll use a swimming metaphor
You have to learn how to keep your head out of the water before learning how to move around. If you only do the moves on earth and then jump in the pool thinking that you can swim I hope the lifeguard has good reflexes. Same here, you need to learn the basic stance before moving around in it simply because the body mechanics are different and that you can develop bad habits if your foundations aren't solid. It reminds me of some boxers who use the "swing" a lot. "Oh, that move is so powerful, the coach is a dumbass for yelling at me when I do it, I've already knocked out a guy with it!" until the day they face a boxer with good basics and they get that compact textbook right cross right on the nose. Believe me, it's a pain in the *** to unlearn such bad habits.

Also, about lineages, they are the proof that you have been taught the original art. Some are honest and say they made up their own style (e.g. Wing Tai by Heinrich Pfaff) but others just look at videos on Youtube or practice in their garage and then claim to teach Wing Chun. Those are unable to provide their lineage and are considered as scams because that's what they are. I'll end my post with a very cliché metaphor: as a Frenchman, I don't think you would like a bottle of Estonian low-quality wine* having a tag with "Romanée Conti" on it. Lineages are the "controlled designation of origin" of martial arts

*Didn't mean to offend any Estonian wine producer.

 

[geezer]

Nico, i thought I recognized a Leung Ting/EWTO influence in the movement sequences of your forms, but not at all in the energy quality. I sympathize with your effort to do your own thing. It's hard for an independent minded "Bohemian" soul to fit into the authoritarian structure of some of the traditional schools. I remember sometimes really pissing off my old sifu, LT --quite unintentionally, by asking questions or by experimenting creatively with things before he felt I was ready. Kind of a culture clash I suppose. I guess that's one reason I'm actually happier to be with an independent group now. LT had amazing skills, but I don't have the ability (or the desire) to be just like him.

Besides, as you pointed out, there is a lot of cool stuff out there. You mentioned bajiquan. Definitely cool.

And for an especially yang or "hard" interpretation:

Regardless, that stuff is a bit to rough on the body for me ...getting a bit old for that, so I round out my Ving Chun with Escrima. Here are some clips of Rene from the period when I trained under him. When I feel the need to express some more "yang" energy, this is how I like to rock it:

 

[O'Malley]

Oh the Sinawali is my favorite part of the art! It's so cool when you have a good flow! I remember my Warriors Eskrima teacher showing "heaven six" to me and me getting it down quite well on the first try. My instructor was impressed and it obviously pissed off my mate hahaha

 

[poulperadieux]

Well, I know nothing about WC but I'll give my opinion on that video from a hypnotist point of view.

First, poulperadieux, I guess you usually hypnotize her in French so it's surprising how well she seems to respond to your English suggestions, although you smartly used the snapping of your fingers (which obviously remains the same in every language) as a trigger to induce sleep. This shows that she's really suggestible or that she was trained quite often to respond to you (or that she didn't want to embarass you xD )

She's learning Hypnosis, but, the first time I saw her, she was gone in 30 seconds.
Actually, most of my subjects are gone in 1 or 2 minutes after a pre talk, or else I usually fail.

The basis of hypnosis is persuading your subject that you can walk the talk. If the induction is done correctly she should feel that her field of vision has bettered (as shown in the video).

And, what do you do about the tunnel vision during the induction?

It's all in her head, maybe it would translate as her being more aware of her surroundings.

Whether it really works from an objective point of view or not I can't tell, though.

The first time I heard of these technique, it was from a former international bodygard who trained gong fu (can't say witch one, as I can't put it in my CV sorry) with a taoist teacher in China.

Personally, I would use hypnosis to help the students be more confident (not only in MA but in life as well). Another interesting application of hypnosis would be to induce hyperesthesia to make them more aware of their bodies (maybe during the forms training?).

So they feel more pain? Naaah.

If you induce a trance, you create a rapport, so the communication , the non verbal communication during chi sao is easier.
And they get less frustrated and nervous, and irritated by fails.
You created a strong connecion and you observe rapid progresses.
Spectacular ones if you compare with regular students.

Basically, you're teaching your students a somewhat intermediate form before teaching the basics, right?

Wrong,

Beginners, intermediate, advanced, they all have the same basics, the same forms, the same exercices.
The basics don't change as you level up.

That's the pedagogy I used to have when I started in the Leung ting affiliated school : techniques are different when you level up, what a joke...
"You'll learn the correct technique, the MOst advanced techinque in the world when you have paid enough young padawan, shut up and gimme your credit card now"
I'm against it.
It's not pedagogy, It's busness.
(are you in a Wing Tsun School?)

When you learn boxing, you learn the jab, you work the Jab.
When you are a heawyweight champion, you also work the Jab every day, same basics, same move, but better executed.

Same in my teaching methods, advanced train the same thing than beginners, they just do it better.

As an ex water-polo player, I'll use a swimming metaphor
You have to learn how to keep your head out of the water before learning how to move around. If you only do the moves on earth and then jump in the pool thinking that you can swim I hope the lifeguard has good reflexes.

Or you can skip the air training and start directly in the little basin, doing basics moves with an assistance, and with rules that garantees your security.
Use your imagination, simplify your teaching methods, your students are smarter than you think.
They'll teach you, they are the real teachers.

Same here, you need to learn the basic stance before moving around in it simply because the body mechanics are different and that you can develop bad habits if your foundations aren't solid.

You can developp bad habits only if your teacher isn't watching you training, and correcting you accordingly.

It reminds me of some boxers who use the "swing" a lot. "Oh, that move is so powerful, the coach is a dumbass for yelling at me when I do it, I've already knocked out a guy with it!" until the day they face a boxer with good basics and they get that compact textbook right cross right on the nose. Believe me, it's a pain in the *** to unlearn such bad habits.

If your student doesn't listen to you, what happens is his responsability, part yours, yell harder, and kick in the ***, helps knowledge to get in !

ie : If you are not good enough to teach your boxer that he's wrong, thant tell him to train with a more skilled boxer, or you are just wasting his time.

Also, about lineages, they are the proof that you have been taught the original art.

**** original art.

I'm the one who makes Wing Chun live, I'm the one using Wing Chun, not the other way around.
No organisation claim to say : this is a product of ours.

And also, no student of mine is a product from my school, hope they'll developp their own style and never afford to copy me.

Wing chun has no form.

Some are honest and say they made up their own style (e.g. Wing Tai by Heinrich Pfaff) but others just look at videos on Youtube or practice in their garage and then claim to teach Wing Chun. Those are unable to provide their lineage and are considered as scams because that's what they are. I'll end my post with a very cliché metaphor: as a Frenchman, I don't think you would like a bottle of Estonian low-quality wine* having a tag with "Romanée Conti" on it. Lineages are the "controlled designation of origin" of martial arts

Lineages in wing chun are mostely a way to make good busness ...

I'm not training wing chun, I'm only a small teacher from the radiant octopus school, and I'm teaching Ouingue Choune, a French Creation from the south of france.

*Didn't mean to offend any Estonian wine producer.

But you did.

Some american wine are quite superior than the French ones, and have the same names.

They too their roots in the original ground, than they traveled a lot.

So do I.

 

[O'Malley]

She's learning Hypnosis, but, the first time I saw her, she was gone in 30 seconds.
Actually, most of my subjects are gone in 1 or 2 minutes after a pre talk, or else I usually fail.

I hope they do! I do instant inductions and it takes less than 10 seconds. However, I prefer to use longer inductions the first time, just to make them comfortable as anyone isn't as suggestible as Julia (I wish I were, it took some time before I could enjoy hypnosis fully).

And, what do you do about the tunnel vision during the induction?

It's all in her head, like I said. Be it the tunnel vision, the impression that her peripheral vision bettered or the illusion of Yosemite Sam playing banjo.

The first time I heard of these technique, it was from a former international bodygard who trained gong fu (can't say witch one, as I can't put it in my CV sorry) with a taoist teacher in China.

Again, it's subjective. If you are convinced that it helps you, it certainly does somehow. Maybe your WC is better but it can be due to the confidence your faith in the induction brought you and not a direct effect of it.

So they feel more pain? Naaah.

If you induce a trance, you create a rapport, so the communication , the non verbal communication during chi sao is easier.
And they get less frustrated and nervous, and irritated by fails.
You created a strong connecion and you observe rapid progresses.
Spectacular ones if you compare with regular students.

If you feel pain when you are training forms, you're doing it wrong. I've never said that it had to be done during sparring but when you are aware of your own body you can learn balance and proper execution more easily.

Wrong,

Beginners, intermediate, advanced, they all have the same basics, the same forms, the same exercices.
The basics don't change as you level up.

That's the pedagogy I used to have when I started in the Leung ting affiliated school : techniques are different when you level up, what a joke...
"You'll learn the correct technique, the MOst advanced techinque in the world when you have paid enough young padawan, shut up and gimme your credit card now"
I'm against it.
It's not pedagogy, It's busness.
(are you in a Wing Tsun School?)

No, I'm not (said it in my first post and that's why I was asking about the intermediate form). You say that everyone has the same basics, be it a beginner, advanced student or master. No one here said the contrary. What you just said just reinforces their point of view as, from what I have read, you don't teach the basic forms first.

When you learn boxing, you learn the jab, you work the Jab.
When you are a heawyweight champion, you also work the Jab every day, same basics, same move, but better executed.

Same in my teaching methods, advanced train the same thing than beginners, they just do it better.

Same in every teaching method. You got it wrong. In Muay Thai, you first learn the jab, then the elbow strike. A guy in my club couldn't jab properly so he tried the elbow strike he had practiced everyday and just got an upper on the chin. I still wonder how he could get hurt so badly as we were all wearing training gloves...

Or you can skip the air training and start directly in the little basin, doing basics moves with an assistance, and with rules that garantees your security.

That's what people here avised you to do: to teach your students proper body mechanics starting with proper stance. Teaching them to move before they know how to stand is like giving them swimming lessons on earth: different body mechanics.

You can developp bad habits only if your teacher isn't watching you training, and correcting you accordingly.

If your student doesn't listen to you, what happens is his responsability, part yours, yell harder, and kick in the ***, helps knowledge to get in !

ie : If you are not good enough to teach your boxer that he's wrong, thant tell him to train with a more skilled boxer, or you are just wasting his time.

Even if you correct them, they later will have to unlearn the first thing you taught them in order to do the basics properly.

**** original art.

I'm the one who makes Wing Chun live, I'm the one using Wing Chun, not the other way around.
No organisation claim to say : this is a product of ours.

And also, no student of mine is a product from my school, hope they'll developp their own style and never afford to copy me.

Wing chun has no form.

Lineages in wing chun are mostely a way to make good busness ...

I'm not training wing chun, I'm only a small teacher from the radiant octopus school, and I'm teaching Ouingue Choune, a French Creation from the south of france.

Yes, I'm sure it attracts more people when you tell them that you teach the well-known art of Wing Chun than to say "well, I made my own martial and I teach it differently, not in the way which has been proving successful for three hundred years". It doesn't seem honest to me, though. I thought you weren't there for business? Just kidding

But you did.

Some american wine are quite superior than the French ones, and have the same names.

They too their roots in the original ground, than they traveled a lot.

So do I.

Wrong. Sure some American wines are better than some French wines but they never get the AOC. The name on the bottle is the species of grape used to make it and is no proof of quality. The AOC indicates the origin and the method used to make the product which IS a proof of quality. And please Google "Romanée Conti", as you don't seem to know what it is. Then you'll know it's not even comparable.

 

[Vajramusti]

I'm going to be very honest here. It is a good thing to be open minded and polite, especially in a public forum, but I think it is still more important to place value on the truth. Martial arts in particular is a place where many people are mislead, and often subscribe to, and place far too much emphasis on "magic." After watching your videos - in particular your forms, and this video, and after reading your blog, I am concerned that you are being mislead.

Proficiency in any martial art does not come through "magic;" it does not come through tricks or gimmicks like hypnosis or special workouts. As with anything in life, it comes only through good practice and hard work.

.

My honest, truthful advice: quit focusing on the magic, and focus on the foundation.

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Agree with the above.

 

[geezer]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree with the above.

Yeah Joy, I agree too.

On the other hand, Anybody who directs the "Radiant Octopus" school has got a sense of humor. And I'm tolerant of all kinds of crazy ideas when presented with humor. I mean after all, an awful lot of posters on these forums are just "internet warriors" anyway. That's OK by me as long as nobody takes what's posted too seriously. Unlike those bickering idiots over at the KF magazine forum, I log on here to make friends and enjoy myself.

 

[poulperadieux]

Yeah Joy, I agree too.

On the other hand, Anybody who directs the "Radiant Octopus" school has got a sense of humor. And I'm tolerant of all kinds of crazy ideas when presented with humor. I mean after all, an awful lot of posters on these forums are just "internet warriors" anyway. That's OK by me as long as nobody takes what's posted too seriously. Unlike those bickering idiots over at the KF magazine forum, I log on here to make friends and enjoy myself.

That's all what's about in gong fu : to enjoy yourself and make friends.

 

[Uncle]

That's all what's about in gong fu : to enjoy yourself and make friends.

Right. The ability to fight has nothing to do with it :lol:

 

[poulperadieux]

I hope they do! I do instant inductions and it takes less than 10 seconds. However, I prefer to use longer inductions the first time, just to make them comfortable as anyone isn't as suggestible as Julia (I wish I were, it took some time before I could enjoy hypnosis fully).

Yeah, Elman or triple bind is a good choice for the first time, but sometimes, you got a fellow who sit and is already in trance, happens more than I thougt, or I really have an hypnotic couch.

It's all in her head, like I said. Be it the tunnel vision, the impression that her peripheral vision bettered or the illusion of Yosemite Sam playing banjo.

Actually, before I discovered and learned Hypnosis, I experienced during fights the expansion of the vision and the time and space modification.

Again, it's subjective. If you are convinced that it helps you, it certainly does somehow. Maybe your WC is better but it can be due to the confidence your faith in the induction brought you and not a direct effect of it.

Dunno, like Sifu Woody said : "Whatever Works !"

No, I'm not (said it in my first post and that's why I was asking about the intermediate form). You say that everyone has the same basics, be it a beginner, advanced student or master. No one here said the contrary. What you just said just reinforces their point of view as, from what I have read, you don't teach the basic forms first.

Actually, In one month, every student get to follow the tree forms, the footwork and the stance harsh training, so the order is of little importance.

Same in every teaching method. You got it wrong. In Muay Thai, you first learn the jab, then the elbow strike. A guy in my club couldn't jab properly so he tried the elbow strike he had practiced everyday and just got an upper on the chin. I still wonder how he could get hurt so badly as we were all wearing training gloves...

You say that learning the jab protects you against uppers?
If you focus on elbows, you must be taught the strategy that comes with it, or else, you are ****ed.

That's what people here avised you to do: to teach your students proper body mechanics starting with proper stance. Teaching them to move before they know how to stand is like giving them swimming lessons on earth: different body mechanics.

Old Fencing masters who wrote books in France says the countrary, I belive in them, and I've got results, you should try.

Even if you correct them, they later will have to unlearn the first thing you taught them in order to do the basics properly.

Not at all, footwork is an important basic, and they all come to my course knowing how to walk, so I assume they can properly be taught how to move in a fight.

Yes, I'm sure it attracts more people when you tell them that you teach the well-known art of Wing Chun than to say "well, I made my own martial and I teach it differently, not in the way which has been proving successful for three hundred years". It doesn't seem honest to me, though. I thought you weren't there for business? Just kidding

You didn't understand what I said, or pretend not to...
Every student is a different problem, you can't teach the same thing to a skinny little girl and a big fat muscle guy.
What do we know about how wing chun was and was taught 300 years ago.
As you must know, Yip man changed a lot of things he was taught by Wah Shun, Ip man wing chun is a recent creation, it's not a traditionnal wing chun and he had problem in his school because of that.

Taught to senior people in Ip man Wing chun, they confirmed Ip man created his own style, and didn't bother to transmit an exact replica of his own style to anybody, as some people here belive.

Or else, how come Leung Sheun, Lok Yiu, Tsui Seung Ting, Wong Sheun Leung have so many differences in how they do Wing Chun?

Wrong. Sure some American wines are better than some French wines but they never get the AOC. The name on the bottle is the species of grape used to make it and is no proof of quality. The AOC indicates the origin and the method used to make the product which IS a proof of quality. And please Google "Romanée Conti", as you don't seem to know what it is. Then you'll know it's not even comparable.

**** AOC, a good wine is a good wine. You don't drink what's written on it.

Romanée conti... Got a bottle in my house an a picture in front of the fields in my home, please... Come on.

 

[poulperadieux]

Right. The ability to fight has nothing to do with it :lol:

If you learn gong fu only to win fights, you'll just feel empty when you'll have defeated all your rivals.

I hope, considered your big age, you know better?

 

[Uncle]

If you learn gong fu only to win fights, you'll just feel empty when you'll have defeated all your rivals.

I hope, considered your big age, you know better?

And if you don't start with combative proficiency as the basis and primary emphasis of your training then you're training and teaching what is essentially wushu or health tai chi.

 

[poulperadieux]

I only teach fight to girls, guys tend to be wuss in this field.

 

[Tez3]

I only teach fight to girls, guys tend to be wuss in this field.

Now there speaks a gallant gentleman indeed! And what he says is true.....! :ladysman:

 

[poulperadieux]

Now there speaks a gallant gentleman indeed! And what he says is true.....! :ladysman:

That's my curse, only brilliant and fierce girls understand me.

I'm Blushing now.

"I fight. Not simply with my opponent. I fight with the demons of doubt. With my exhaustion, with my past failures, with my injuries, with my anonymity, with the unrelenting voice that tells me to stop. But I am a fighter. And one thing is sure. I will be victorious."

That's exactely my point !

You fight, but not with only an opponent.
Girls understand easily how to go beyond that.

 

[poulperadieux]

And, for Geezer, my reference for Bajiquan :