Hybrid Arts

[O'Malley]

Stumbled on this thread while looking up some enlightened opinions on what DK Yoo does.

I'd like to correct what juany said about the Wing Tai videos: the person seen there is simply not DK Yoo, his name is Mark Stas and he teaches Wing Tai here in Belgium.

I actually asked about Wing Tai on here some years ago, it's a martial art whose founder used to be an instructor at EWTO (don't know which rank he used to hold). He jammed together the Wing Chun and Eskrima stuff he used to teach as a "Crash course" then threw in some kickboxing and called the result "Wing Tai".

I don't like the way they (very) heavily market their art and the general "money hungry" vibe they have. Also it seems that they try to pass it off as an ancient martial art for marketing purposes, the history written by the "founder" on the Belgian website is embarrassing: History of Wing Tai

I don't know WC enough to comment on their moves, though.

 

[Juany118]

Stumbled on this thread while looking up some enlightened opinions on what DK Yoo does.

I'd like to correct what juany said about the Wing Tai videos: the person seen there is simply not DK Yoo, his name is Mark Stas and he teaches Wing Tai here in Belgium.

I actually asked about Wing Tai on here some years ago, it's a martial art whose founder used to be an instructor at EWTO (don't know which rank he used to hold). He jammed together the Wing Chun and Eskrima stuff he used to teach as a "Crash course" then threw in some kickboxing and called the result "Wing Tai".

I don't like the way they (very) heavily market their art and the general "money hungry" vibe they have. Also it seems that they try to pass it off as an ancient martial art for marketing purposes, the history written by the "founder" on the Belgian website is embarrassing: History of Wing Tai

I don't know WC enough to comment on their moves, though.

If I misidentified the person in the WingTai videos my bad. I did later post a video, from which stills also are all over, identifying the practitioner in question as DK Yoo. I had actually just stumbled onto the DK Yoo stuff and so I might have made a "snap" identification which resulted in a mistake. I'll do some more digging into Wing Tai so I am a bit more well informed.

 

[O'Malley]

No problem, I just wanted to correct this assumption. ^^

What is your opinion regarding DK Yoo?

To go back to the original topic, I think that every martial art has its origin in the mixing of some concepts and moves to make a coherent system. I've trained in Kajukenbo which is literally a mix of Karate Judo/Jujutsu Kenpo and Western/Chinese Boxing, with other things thrown in when found interesting by the teacher (lua, eskrima, silat, etc.).

The crucial point, when you mix styles, IMHO, must be how the teacher understands what makes each style work in reality and if he's able to transfer those important concepts into his synthesis, not merely the moves.

And when it comes to fighting, I believe that you won't use a system, you'll just do what you can with your current knowledge and body. A Tai Chi stylist might just do a haymaker out of instinct. If you've studied more than one style I doubt you'll be switching between "judo mode" and "kung fu mode", you'll just fight. And even if you're a "pure" one-MA-in-your-entire-life person, your karate will not exactly be the same as your teacher's, even though the training methods are the same.

 

[Juany118]

No problem, I just wanted to correct this assumption. ^^

What is your opinion regarding DK Yoo?

To go back to the original topic, I think that every martial art has its origin in the mixing of some concepts and moves to make a coherent system. I've trained in Kajukenbo which is literally a mix of Karate Judo/Jujutsu Kenpo and Western/Chinese Boxing, with other things thrown in when found interesting by the teacher (lua, eskrima, silat, etc.).

The crucial point, when you mix styles, IMHO, must be how the teacher understands what makes each style work in reality and if he's able to transfer those important concepts into his synthesis, not merely the moves.

And when it comes to fighting, I believe that you won't use a system, you'll just do what you can with your current knowledge and body. A Tai Chi stylist might just do a haymaker out of instinct. If you've studied more than one style I doubt you'll be switching between "judo mode" and "kung fu mode", you'll just fight. And even if you're a "pure" one-MA-in-your-entire-life person, your karate will not exactly be the same as your teacher's, even though the training methods are the same.

First on DK... I think he is a very physically gifted person but if the videos label his stuff correctly... "Here he does Wing Chun... here he does FMA" I see issues, it looks the part when fast usually but when slowed down you see issues.

To your last point, depending on the art and circumstance you can switch modes so to speak in my experience. When I am holding a weapon I am Kali no doubt and if unarmed facing a weapon same. If I am unarmed and striking someone unarmed I am largely Wing Chun. If I am on the ground it's kinda a mash up of Judo, Aikido and Kali though I will admit. It's not a conscious decision, it just happens because Wing Chun doesn't have a ground game (as one example) so WC doesn't even come to mind, the ground fighting I learned from other arts do. So it's like switching gears in an automatic transmission, it switches as the circumstances demand.

I think the main benefit of a hybrid martial art is that it can more efficiently teach you to deal with these circumstances because most arts have a focus. It may be 60-40 or 70-30 etc but a hybrid tries to bring it all together in one. The path I took to be real world effective imo (by no means a "teacher" just effective in getting the job done) in the various circumstances I have had to study different TMAs for over a decade worth of formal training and far more than that practicing even when not attending a school

Now some may say while I didn't train hybrid this method means that I have a de facto personal hybrid at and I wouldn't argue against it, just say it doesn't feel that way to me because when I am in class or doing forms, shadow boxing and drilling in the basement, I am doing one art at a time so it doesn't "feel" that way to me.

 

[drop bear]

It is worthwhile knowing how to link the different martial arts up. You get away with switching for a while. But at a certain level you need to have the transitions correct.

 

[Juany118]

@O'Malley responding to your thread made me think a bit and maybe @gpseymour can participate since he teaches what is a hybrid of Japanese arts. Note, I am clarifying the purpose here because I have learned if I don't it creates a pissing match.

Clarification this is a friendly "spit balling" intellectual exercise. Spirited arguments are cool but remember, it's about an exchange of ideas to encourage open minded thinking.

So to the idea. We all know if you study purpose built hybrid arts your practice will be a hybrid. By definition if you study or have studied but continue the practice of multiple arts that have a different primary focus do you in essence create your own hybrid art or are you practicing individual arts at the optimal moment?

I know it's ideas like this that annoy my wife. Lol

 

[Juany118]

It is worthwhile knowing how to link the different martial arts up. You get away with switching for a while. But at a certain level you need to have the transitions correct.

There are nuances. The biggest blurring I have is between Kali and WC since my current teacher teaches both in a manner where the transition from standing WC to using Kali to avoid going to ground is pretty seemless. The main point was though, once on the ground, Wing Chun is lost because it has nothing.

In terms of unarmed and armed TWC and the Kali I study are very close so the swap to unarmed vs weapon doesn't take a lot. It's more a mind set change. WC tends to be singularly "tight" in its thought and movement. Kali "widens" out a bit naturally because of a different mindset. WC has weapons but the main focus is on the open hand. Kali is actually an MMA in and of itself but it assumes people are armed or can quickly arm themselves and thus it widens but that is more of a mental switch than a technique based one.

Studying those two arts side by side actually made me notice something. Physically they are very similar however the mindset changes. So if unarmed I think "check" near the elbow is a punch is coming in. If the other guy is armed my body uses the exact same "check" but my brain/instinct tells me to do it closer to the wrist with wider footwork because of the knife. So sometimes the same movement, with a different trained mindset mindset making a small alteration is all it takes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are nuances. The biggest blurring I have is between Kali and WC since my current teacher teaches both in a manner where the transition from standing WC to using Kali to avoid going to ground is pretty seemless. The main point was though, once on the ground, Wing Chun is lost because it has nothing.

In terms of unarmed and armed TWC and the Kali I study are very close so the swap to unarmed vs weapon doesn't take a lot. It's more a mind set change. WC tends to be singularly "tight" in its thought and movement. Kali "widens" out a bit naturally because of a different mindset. WC has weapons but the main focus is on the open hand. Kali is actually an MMA in and of itself but it assumes people are armed or can quickly arm themselves and thus it widens but that is more of a mental switch than a technique based one.

Studying those two arts side by side actually made me notice something. Physically they are very similar however the mindset changes. So if unarmed I think "check" near the elbow is a punch is coming in. If the other guy is armed my body uses the exact same "check" but my brain/instinct tells me to do it closer to the wrist with wider footwork because of the knife. So sometimes the same movement, with a different trained mindset mindset making a small alteration is all it takes.

This makes sense to me. In my NGA (I have started thinking of my own practice that way, because I can't be certain of the larger NGA community), there's not a lot of technical difference between armed and unarmed. I like to control punches as if there was a knife in them, just in case. However, when I know a knife is present, thing do - as you say - widen. In my case, that's mostly to create a bit more room for error around the blade.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@O'Malley responding to your thread made me think a bit and maybe @gpseymour can participate since he teaches what is a hybrid of Japanese arts. Note, I am clarifying the purpose here because I have learned if I don't it creates a pissing match.

Clarification this is a friendly "spit balling" intellectual exercise. Spirited arguments are cool but remember, it's about an exchange of ideas to encourage open minded thinking.

So to the idea. We all know if you study purpose built hybrid arts your practice will be a hybrid. By definition if you study or have studied but continue the practice of multiple arts that have a different primary focus do you in essence create your own hybrid art or are you practicing individual arts at the optimal moment?

I know it's ideas like this that annoy my wife. Lol

I've integrated some bits from other arts (some Judo, some FMA, some BJJ/MMA, even a bit of Tang Soo Do, etc.) into my NGA. For me, there has always been a "primary" art, and I integrate new material into that. So "my NGA" is an expanding hybrid art. If I practice a new art on an ongoing basis (as with the FMA/JJJ hybrid I studied for a while), I practice it separately, but immediately start integrating bits into "my NGA". If I found a new art that sang to me (StyleX) and became my new primary art, all that NGA (and the other stuff) would eventually get integrated into that, creating "my StyleX".

That's not always the case, though. One of my training partners at the dojo I was at longest trained in NGA and Shotokan Karate at the same time for most of those years (still does the Shotokan, I think, and is still at that NGA dojo). He also studied Iaido for a few years, but I think he stopped that one. I never saw a lot of the Shotokan influence in his NGA, except a tendency to take angles others wouldn't use as often. He seemed to keep them mostly separated, which seems a loss for both him and his partners. Having someone with that much skill in Shotokan should make him a highly desirable training partner, for the added challenge he can present.

NOTE: Because of my experience with that partner, I've made a point of helping students integrate what they already know into NGA. I have a student with several years of Shotokan, and I help him dissect the differences in movement, try to do little to displace his current learning on strikes (which are are as good as any I would teach him, and pretty close analogs to all of ours), and examine where each is a good fit, so he can integrate the two into a more cohesive personal style. Unlike some instructors, I don't want him to leave his Shotokan outside and pick it up on the way out. I want him to bring it in. I'll ask him to set it aside if there's something specific he needs to work on as a new tool, but I want to see that Shotokan come out when an NGA technique fails.

 

[Vajramusti]

I've integrated some bits from other arts (some Judo, some FMA, some BJJ/MMA, even a bit of Tang Soo Do, etc.) into my NGA. For me, there has always been a "primary" art, and I integrate new material into that. So "my NGA" is an expanding hybrid art. If I practice a new art on an ongoing basis (as with the FMA/JJJ hybrid I studied for a while), I practice it separately, but immediately start integrating bits into "my NGA". If I found a new art that sang to me (StyleX) and became my new primary art, all that NGA (and the other stuff) would eventually get integrated into that, creating "my StyleX".

That's not always the case, though. One of my training partners at the dojo I was at longest trained in NGA and Shotokan Karate at the same time for most of those years (still does the Shotokan, I think, and is still at that NGA dojo). He also studied Iaido for a few years, but I think he stopped that one. I never saw a lot of the Shotokan influence in his NGA, except a tendency to take angles others wouldn't use as often. He seemed to keep them mostly separated, which seems a loss for both him and his partners. Having someone with that much skill in Shotokan should make him a highly desirable training partner, for the added challenge he can present.

NOTE: Because of my experience with that partner, I've made a point of helping students integrate what they already know into NGA. I have a student with several years of Shotokan, and I help him dissect the differences in movement, try to do little to displace his current learning on strikes (which are are as good as any I would teach him, and pretty close analogs to all of ours), and examine where each is a good fit, so he can integrate the two into a more cohesive personal style. Unlike some instructors, I don't want him to leave his Shotokan outside and pick it up on the way out. I want him to bring it in. I'll ask him to set it aside if there's something specific he needs to work on as a new tool, but I want to see that Shotokan come out when an NGA technique fails.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW- I am interested in many things and arts- bout I do not compromise my wing chun.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

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FWIW- I am interested in many things and arts- bout I do not compromise my wing chun.

I'm not even sure what that means.

 

[Transk53]

I'm not even sure what that means.

Guess that is typo. Wing Chun is the base and wanting compromise that.

 

[Vajramusti]

I'm not even sure what that means.

-------------------------------------- Simple-
I dont import other systems into my wing chun.
Nota condemnation of others who do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

-------------------------------------- Simple-
I dont import other systems into my wing chun.
Nota condemnation of others who do.

Ah, that makes sense. I don't see it as "compromising" an art to bring ideas (and even techniques) from elsewhere. No art started without outside influence, and bringing in new ideas is what keeps an art current and adaptive.

 

[Juany118]

This makes sense to me. In my NGA (I have started thinking of my own practice that way, because I can't be certain of the larger NGA community), there's not a lot of technical difference between armed and unarmed. I like to control punches as if there was a knife in them, just in case. However, when I know a knife is present, thing do - as you say - widen. In my case, that's mostly to create a bit more room for error around the blade.

Well, I think it goes a bit beyond having room for error. The weapon even just a pocket knife, provides longer reach so if you check/allow to pass a knife perfectly (because you can't safely control the attacking limb) you need that extra bit of space to ensure you don't get caught by it. The same applies if you are armed. The idea isn't to just "stop" a sword or baton but, if the angle of attack allows, to deflect. If you block or deflect to widely you open yourself to an easy riposte, so you still need to move and now your facing something that can have a reach of 2 feet or longer so remembering to be "wider" is even more important.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I think it goes a bit beyond having room for error. The weapon even just a pocket knife, provides longer reach so if you check/allow to pass a knife perfectly (because you can't safely control the attacking limb) you need that extra bit of space to ensure you don't get caught by it. The same applies if you are armed. The idea isn't to just "stop" a sword or baton but, if the angle of attack allows, to deflect. If you block or deflect to widely you open yourself to an easy riposte, so you still need to move and now your facing something that can have a reach of 2 feet or longer so remembering to be "wider" is even more important.

That's really what I meant by "room for error". I can let a punch pass an inch or so away, and that's plenty. That same hand holding a knife? Not enough room. I need to allow enough room for the knife, plus my usual margin for error (and probably some extra of that, too).

 

[Juany118]

That's really what I meant by "room for error". I can let a punch pass an inch or so away, and that's plenty. That same hand holding a knife? Not enough room. I need to allow enough room for the knife, plus my usual margin for error (and probably some extra of that, too).

Gotcha

As an interesting side point I even say "my WC" or "my Kali" etc in relation to my current school. It goes as far as stances, not even preferred techniques. As an example, while we train of course to use many stance, front or neutral, but when sparring I sometimes annoy my partner's because while in drills we often do "same side same side" and my Sifu is a bigger fan of neutral stances I always use the left front stance. The reason for this is because I am right hand dominant and so my sidearm is on my right hip. As I will always be left side leading during encounters at work, that's how I spar. Why it annoys some of the partners I don't know but it does.

 

[Vajramusti]

Ah, that makes sense. I don't see it as "compromising" an art to bring ideas (and even techniques) from elsewhere. No art started without outside influence, and bringing in new ideas is what keeps an art current and adaptive.

----------------------------------------------------------
Yes- but I was talking about Ip Man's version of the art.. Although people drop his name-omly a handful of people developed a deep
understanding of his art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

----------------------------------------------------------
Yes- but I was talking about Ip Man's version of the art.. Although people drop his name-omly a handful of people developed a deep
understanding of his art.

Yip Man, if I understand correctly, did not simply take exactly what he was given. He refined. Would it not be in the spirit of his refinement to continue to refine as needs and environment change?

This is not a condemnation, please understand that. This is a challenge I put to all martial artists who are pursuing combat effectiveness. We cannot afford to preserve for preservation's sake - we should preserve for functional reasons, just as we should alter, refine, and renew for functional reasons.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gotcha

As an interesting side point I even say "my WC" or "my Kali" etc in relation to my current school. It goes as far as stances, not even preferred techniques. As an example, while we train of course to use many stance, front or neutral, but when sparring I sometimes annoy my partner's because while in drills we often do "same side same side" and my Sifu is a bigger fan of neutral stances I always use the left front stance. The reason for this is because I am right hand dominant and so my sidearm is on my right hip. As I will always be left side leading during encounters at work, that's how I spar. Why it annoys some of the partners I don't know but it does.

That's the sort of adaptation that should occur. It's irrelevant to most of the students, but would be highly relevant for any who have their CCW, as it is for LEO's like yourself.