Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

Now there is a new term you are inserting here, strategy and "tactics" that somehow we are confused about but you use interchangeably with "purpose" but are completely enlightened on?

Come on now, man. Double-talk.

TWC's grappling and takedowns are basically cr@p, as you just heard pronounced by a TWC sifu that is also a BJJ black belt. I actually haven't seen them, so can't comment but the guy commenting is solid. I would recommend Gracie Combatives for LEO's to train self defense grappling, instead of TWC forms.

As a LEO apprehending someone you are talking about a completely different thing chasing down a perp and cuffing him than protecting yourself in a self-defense scenario where your pirmary reaction may or may not work. Although from what I have observed I will agree that due to the poor conditioning and inadequate training of LEO's in general, they may get confused thinking their life is in danger after a long sprint and struggle to handcuff a perp.

You didn't read all of what he said or what I said.

Nearly all the TWC "takedowns" can be found as basic or intermediate techniques in other grappling arts...


I think the stuff clicked with you because of your background in controlling and taking down subjects and your previous experience in throwing arts...

While it arguably it has takedowns, it definitely does not have realistic takedown defense.

Yes the grappling is novice to intermediate. I also openly admit it has little realistic takedown defense. hHe knows, and I said, that I use the grappling I learned from Aikido, Judo and am still studying in Kali. The point is since the grappling is in TWC it doesn't have an exclusive striking mindset and thus teaches you to transition from striking to grappling. I dont use TWC grappling once I am there but the curriculum teaches you to get to that point. Once there it takes no effort to go to the superior grappling skills I learn(ed) from other arts.

Simply because you have some difficulty making the transition may be because of a difference in our WC's, I know basically nothing about yours. It could be my practical on the job experience making it easier for me. Who knows, all I know is that the transition simply flows.

 

[wayfaring]

My point, and I think @gpseymour understands this from previous conversations is that while TWC is a style of WC (and thus focuses more on striking) there is also training in grappling for actual use, not simply for control to strike as I learned under Gary Lam's version of WSLVT. As stated the grappling at best basic to intermediate level when compared to grappling arts but the mindset is built in to go from striking to grappling if required.

Because of this it's not a matter of saying "WC is for striking" because I have been trained you can also use it for grappling. The difference is my grappling toolbox is bigger because I have studied grappling arts. Additionally I have the ingrained habit from almost 20 years (19 in Feb to be exact) to end every fight with grappling/cuffing. As such I train with this in mind.

Now I may also be lucky. My Sifu/Guro is someone who knows the value of making sure the students also know the grappling game of TWC. He then expands on this in Kali, likely because if you are unarmed and your opponent is armed being able to use the grappling game is pretty much a necessity. We are actually hosting a seminar in Feb on combatives grappling (fast bridging to takedowns, air and blood chokes, dislocations etc.) with and with out knives in Feb. The curriculum will be a combination of TWC and Kali, the later having a more evolved grappling game than the former.

My input here is that if you are investing time in "knowing the grappling game of TWC" that you should also "know the BJJ culture of tapping out", because you're going to become very experienced at tapping like a drummer in a parade.

Aikido has decent concepts but no delivery system. I train BJJ with several old school aikido trained senseis who train BJJ for that reason only. They can still wristlock like a mofo but for self defense aikido seems to be more effective at making men in skirts flip at invisible contact. What aikido have you studied?

Judo is a deep and effective ground art, but the quality varies greatly. I train occasionally with the national team on their Friday interact with the community day. They are monsters. What is your judo background?

 

[wayfaring]

You didn't read all of what he said or what I said.

Yes the grappling is novice to intermediate. I also openly admit it has little realistic takedown defense. hHe knows, and I said, that I use the grappling I learned from Aikido, Judo and am still studying in Kali. The point is since the grappling is in TWC it doesn't have an exclusive striking mindset and thus teaches you to transition from striking to grappling. I dont use TWC grappling once I am there but the curriculum teaches you to get to that point. Once there it takes no effort to go to the superior grappling skills I learn(ed) from other arts.

Simply because you have some difficulty making the transition may be because of a difference in our WC's, I know basically nothing about yours. It could be my practical on the job experience making it easier for me. Who knows, all I know is that the transition simply flows.

I carefully read everything both of you said, which is why I picked up you switching terms from "purpose" to "tactics".

I think the fact that you think that what I shared represents a "difficulty making the transition" shows you view things pretty condescendingly and don't grasp what I am saying.

So you are a newer TWC student with some other background? I think you might run into some challenges there internally with your own TWC sifus in describing that art as not having a primarily striking mindset. I don't know what an "exclusive striking mindset" is. This is more double-talk to me. TWC does not teach you hand fighting leading to a clinch towards a takedown strategy or goal or whatever other term you want to use.

What is your judo and aikido background?

 

[Juany118]

My input here is that if you are investing time in "knowing the grappling game of TWC" that you should also "know the BJJ culture of tapping out", because you're going to become very experienced at tapping like a drummer in a parade.

Aikido has decent concepts but no delivery system. I train BJJ with several old school aikido trained sifus who train BJJ for that reason only. They can still wristlock like a mofo but for self defense aikido seems to be more effective at making men in skirts flip at invisible contact. What aikido have you studied?

Judo is a deep and effective ground art, but the quality varies greatly. I train occasionally with the national team on their Friday interact with the community day. They are monsters. What is your judo background?

I studied Aikido under a Sensei who definitely learned more towards to Daito-ryu Aiki-Ju Jitsu side as he was very experienced in both. His attitude is summed up by this statement of his; "if you can be soft be soft, if you have to be hard be hard. However you don't make that decision, your opponent tells you which you need to be.". He didn't teach the "hard" however until you reached 4th Kyu, he wanted to make sure you new how to minimize the risk of injury to self or others before he went there. He stopped teaching just as I was ready to test for 1st Kyu and all the other schools in the area were "flippers" so it was off to Judo.

My Judo experience was under a former member of the USA Judo promotion board as well as a certified referee and coach. I didn't go as far with Judo formally because I moved for my job. In either case I kept practicing it would just be me using those skills sparring with co-workers who either study BJJ or were very good collegiate wrestlers. Now the bulk of my grappling comes from Kali.

 

[Juany118]

I carefully read everything both of you said, which is why I picked up you switching terms from "purpose" to "tactics".

I think the fact that you think that what I shared represents a "difficulty making the transition" shows you view things pretty condescendingly and don't grasp what I am saying.

So you are a newer TWC student with some other background? I think you might run into some challenges there internally with your own TWC sifus in describing that art as not having a primarily striking mindset. I don't know what an "exclusive striking mindset" is. This is more double-talk to me. TWC does not teach you hand fighting leading to a clinch towards a takedown strategy or goal or whatever other term you want to use.

What is your judo and aikido background?

Well newer to TWC vs my experience in Aikido, where I was closing in on 1st Dan. As for condescending I am simply trying to figure out why you insist transition from your WC to grappling is hard and causes hesitation and I don't have said issue. Now if you don't mean this as a universal thing, my bad, but it seems like you are saying it is impossible to smoothly transition from one to the other is impossible.

So with that in mind I have seen more than once on these forums people confabulating strategy and tactics, putting too much weight on the strategy of the art. If that isn't the case alright. I also know there can be big differences between different arts that carry the same name, in this case Wing Chun. I know nothing about your particular style of WC so that could be an option.

As an example, regarding exclusive striking mind set, if you ask the WSLVT people, who study under the Philipp Bayer school, they will straight up tell you Wing Chun has NO grappling, that it is literally all about striking. PB even says that himself in an interview. So it's not word games, there are Lineages that do nothing but striking. I know nothing about your lineage and so don't know if it follows that kind of mindset. So it isn't a word game, it's something people have specifically stated regarding their WC.

Now,especially with Kali, I study arts that actually teach a transition from striking to control/grappling. I try to keep that a more vertical game but if I end up having to go to the ground (which I avoid like the plague due to job specific issues).

Maybe that's part of the other issue. For me when I refer to grappling I am also speaking of more verticals kneeling and standing grappling/control. I try to use my knowledge of grappling to avoid the ground fight entirely due to all the gear I wear at work.

 

[wayfaring]

Well newer to TWC vs my experience in Aikido, where I was closing in on 1st Dan. As for condescending I am simply trying to figure out why you insist transition from your WC to grappling is hard and causes hesitation and I don't have said issue. I have seen more than once on these forums people confabulating strategy and tactics, putting too much weight on the strategy of the art. If that isn't the case alright. I also know there can be big differences between different arts that carry the same name, in this case Wing Chun. I know nothing about your particular style of WC so that could be an option.

My point is you appear to be saying something is an impossibility and I see it as something that works. I was just trying to figure out the reason for the different experiences.

Because I don't "insist transition from my WC to grappling is hard and causes hesitation". Nor do I say it doesn't work. I hand fight all the time in competitive grappling competitions down to daily training matches. I even described a nuance of how i hand fight so that it works in congruence with my wing chun training.

I would postulate that you are trying to use TWC as a system to set up grappling, which it was not designed for. Any flow you think you are seeing now is because you are basically hand fighting. And yes, chi sau and wing chun can make you better a hand fighting. But the problem with hand fighting is it violates a basic tenet of wing chun to fight on the centerline and not chase hands. So I would say you are experiencing an illusion that will dissolve in a couple years in your training.

 

[Juany118]

Because I don't "insist transition from my WC to grappling is hard and causes hesitation". Nor do I say it doesn't work. I hand fight all the time in competitive grappling competitions down to daily training matches. I even described a nuance of how i hand fight so that it works in congruence with my wing chun training.

I would postulate that you are trying to use TWC as a system to set up grappling, which it was not designed for. Any flow you think you are seeing now is because you are basically hand fighting. And yes, chi sau and wing chun can make you better a hand fighting. But the problem with hand fighting is it violates a basic tenet of wing chun to fight on the centerline and not chase hands. So I would say you are experiencing an illusion that will dissolve in a couple years in your training.

On the first part, fair enough. I misread and my apologies for that.

On the last my Sifu teaches using the striking to bridge and "soften up" the target as a viable tool to then transition to control/grappling, if that is appropriate. This teaching is supported by the US Representative of GM William Cheung since he also teaches such techniques in class and at his own Chin Na seminars. As such I don't think there is going to be some revelation that will dissolve an alleged illusion. Note: this may be because they both teach TWC but then they will stop and say "and this is what you may have to do in a real self defense scenario." One example, Master Keith Mazza will often say at seminars that while he is doing things from the picture perfect stance with a proper man/wu... "no one will actually fight like this on the street", referring to the perfect man/wu.

The only difference that happens for me personally is that once I enter grappling is that I draw upon a deeper tool box of than someone at a different TWC school because of the Kali my current school teaches in parallel (not hybridized) with WC and my previous experience with Aikido and Judo. /Shrug

 

[wayfaring]

Well newer to TWC vs my experience in Aikido, where I was closing in on 1st Dan. As for condescending I am simply trying to figure out why you insist transition from your WC to grappling is hard and causes hesitation and I don't have said issue. Now if you don't mean this as a universal thing, my bad, but it seems like you are saying it is impossible to smoothly transition from one to the other is impossible.

So with that in mind I have seen more than once on these forums people confabulating strategy and tactics, putting too much weight on the strategy of the art. If that isn't the case alright. I also know there can be big differences between different arts that carry the same name, in this case Wing Chun. I know nothing about your particular style of WC so that could be an option.

As an example, regarding exclusive striking mind set, if you ask the WSLVT people, who study under the Philipp Bayer school, they will straight up tell you Wing Chun has NO grappling, that it is literally all about striking. PB even says that himself in an interview. So it's not word games, there are Lineages that do nothing but striking. I know nothing about your lineage and so don't know if it follows that kind of mindset. So it isn't a word game, it's something people have specifically stated regarding their WC.

Now,especially with Kali, I study arts that actually teach a transition from striking to control/grappling. I try to keep that a more vertical game but if I end up having to go to the ground (which I avoid like the plague due to job specific issues).

Maybe that's part of the other issue. For me when I refer to grappling I am also speaking of more verticals kneeling and standing grappling/control. I try to use my knowledge of grappling to avoid the ground fight entirely due to all the gear I wear at work.

What would I say about Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun as it pertains to grappling from my understanding? As a close quarter striking art what I would say is that it has a kind of anti grappling. By that I mean that we deal with contact on the bridge. Our particular skillsets we develop on the bridge make it a lot more difficult to effectively hand fight. That is what I mean by anti grappling.

 

[Juany118]

What would I say about Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun as it pertains to grappling from my understanding? As a close quarter striking art what I would say is that it has a kind of anti grappling. By that I mean that we deal with contact on the bridge. Our particular skillsets we develop on the bridge make it a lot more difficult to effectively hand fight. That is what I mean by anti grappling.

Okay that makes things much more clear. The only thing I know about your lineage is that, from videos I have seen, there are a couple things shared in the form that aren't in other WC Lineages I have seen.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you are trying to use TWC as a system to set up grappling, which it was not designed for.

You have assumed that WC is your master and you are it's slave. What if you are the master and WC is your slave?

1. When you punch, your opponent blocks,
2. you use the other hand to grab and pull his blocking arm,
3. You use your punching hand to push on his blocking arm shoulder.
4. You use your leg to "spring" his leg, and
5. take him down.

I'm pretty sure 1, 2, 3 are used in WC. Whether 4 and 5 are also used in in WC depend on your "cross training" experience. The nice thing about "striking and grappling integration" is a punch is no longer just a punch. It can be used to "set up something else". After you have realized that, if your opponent blocks or dodges your punch, it won't bother you because you can still do something else.

 

[Juany118]

You have assumed that WC is your master and you are it's slave. What if you are the master and WC is your slave?

1. When you punch, your opponent blocks,
2. you use the other hand to grab and pull his blocking arm,
3. You use your punching hand to push on his blocking arm shoulder.
4. You use your leg to "spring" his leg, and
5. take him down.

I'm pretty sure 1, 2, 3 are used in WC. Whether 4 and 5 are also used in in WC depend on your "cross training" experience. The nice thing about "striking and grappling integration" is a punch is no longer just a punch. It can be used to "set up something else". After you have realized that, if your opponent blocks or dodges your punch, it won't bother you because you can still do something else.

It is part of TWC, another complaint from one of the threads with the WSLVT-PB crowd was the criticism of not only the blind side but that TWC wastes time/effort, trying to trap to open a path to strike. This however is one of the reasons it is not to much of a leap to go from a temporary trap to actual control of that limb.

 

[Flying Crane]

It is part of TWC, another complaint from one of the threads with the WSLVT-PB crowd was the criticism of not only the blind side but that TWC wastes time/effort, trying to trap to open a path to strike. This however is one of the reasons it is not to much of a leap to go from a temporary trap to actual control of that limb.

It is my opinion that once you learn a methodology and a system, it is yours to do with as you like. Even if you figure out how to do some things with it that simply "aren't done" with it.

But I'm just a fellow on the internet with an opinion, and don't really know much.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is part of TWC, ...

Some take downs are hidden in the striking art training. It's up to the individual to dig it out. I'm sure all MA systems have a similar move like this.

When your

- both hands are moving in opposite directions (such as push and pull), or
- one hand and one leg are moving in opposite directions (such as push and kick back),

most likely, that's a take down.

it is not to much of a leap to go from a temporary trap to actual control of that limb.

This is why I think WC sticky hand is a good starting point. But one should not just end right there. My striking art teacher didn't help me to integrate grappling into it. My grappling art teacher didn't help me to integrate the striking into it either. I had to do that all by myself.

 

[wayfaring]

On the first part, fair enough. I misread and my apologies for that.

On the last my Sifu teaches using the striking to bridge and "soften up" the target as a viable tool tk then transition to control/grappling. This teaching is supported by the US Representative of GM William Cheung since he also teaches such techniques in class and at his own Chin Na seminars. As such I don't think there is going to be some revelation that will dissolve an alleged illusion.

The only difference that happens for me personally is that once I enter grappling is that I draw upon a deeper tool box of than someone at a different TWC school because of the Kali my current school teaches in parallel (not hybridized) with WC and my previous experience with Aikido and Judo. /Shrug

Hmmmm. GM Cheung. Chin na. What I will observe about that is history shows us I'd do better studying grappling with Boztepe, who at least spent 7 months with Gokor Chivichyan at the Hayastan Academy prior to their encounter, with predictable results on the ground. But you are absolutely right. There may never be any dissolution to that illusion.

But my bet is on that your viewpoint will change over time.

Oh and I get where the double-talk comes from. One of your old sifus.

As a side story, your "softening up" talk reminds me of a seminar with Royce Gracie. He was teaching taking the back, sink hooks in, and then slap the guy on bottom around a bit to "soften them up" and get them to stop protecting their neck for a choke. Then finish with the RNC. A lot of the time he was talking there was this one purple belt younger guy who was also talking to the guy next to him really loud while Royce was talking. He also asked Royce if we were going to spar during the seminar. You could see Royce getting more and more irritated by the look on his face. So Royce answers "Yes, we are sparring, also add in open hand slaps". He pairs up with this purple belt kid and proceeds to slap him around with open hand slaps more than his mama ever did growing up. After 6 minutes I never saw a quiter kid through the rest of the seminar. Me, I was just sitting there trying not to die laughing.

 

[Juany118]

Hmmmm. GM Cheung. Chin na. What I will observe about that is history shows us I'd do better studying grappling with Boztepe, who at least spent 7 months with Gokor Chivichyan at the Hayastan Academy prior to their encounter, with predictable results on the ground. But you are absolutely right. There may never be any dissolution to that illusion.

But my bet is on that your viewpoint will change over time.

Oh and I get where the double-talk comes from. One of your old sifus.

As a side story, your "softening up" talk reminds me of a seminar with Royce Gracie. He was teaching taking the back, sink hooks in, and then slap the guy on bottom around a bit to "soften them up" and get them to stop protecting their neck for a choke. Then finish with the RNC. A lot of the time he was talking there was this one purple belt younger guy who was also talking to the guy next to him really loud while Royce was talking. He also asked Royce if we were going to spar during the seminar. You could see Royce getting more and more irritated by the look on his face. So Royce answers "Yes, we are sparring, also add in open hand slaps". He pairs up with this purple belt kid and proceeds to slap him around with open hand slaps more than his mama ever did growing up. After 6 minutes I never saw a quiter kid through the rest of the seminar. Me, I was just sitting there trying not to die laughing.

Well I would only say, on the first point, to my knowledge the grappling started getting integrated after that, and perhaps as a result of, that incident (though that incident is a conversation all on its own )

As for the "double talk" I still confused by that. Admittedly I appear to have made some assumptions regarding possible or our differences but those were based on having to deal with other people who actually do not understand the difference between strategy and will make Global statements that this must by definition be how it works for everyone. You actually get that last bit a lot around here. And again for that mea culpa.

That said I will be honest here. If I didn't already have what has shown to be a "street solid" (no clue formal competition solid) grappling game, being reinforced with Kali, I would not rely on TWC grappling unless forced to. It would likely work well on your average brawler/street fighter but a formally trained grappler? Not so much.

My only point is the way TWC is taught to me it has what amounts to a built in transition to grappling that I can exploit with the superior grappling skills of other arts.

 

[wayfaring]

You have assumed that WC is your master and you are it's slave. What if you are the master and WC is your slave?

1. When you punch, your opponent blocks,
2. you use the other hand to grab and pull his blocking arm,
3. You use your punching hand to push on his blocking arm shoulder.
4. You use your leg to "spring" his leg, and
5. take him down.

I'm pretty sure 1, 2, 3 are used in WC. Whether 4 and 5 are also used in in WC depend on your "cross training" experience. The nice thing about "striking and grappling integration" is a punch is no longer just a punch. It can be used to "set up something else". After you have realized that, if your opponent blocks or dodges your punch, it won't bother you because you can still do something else.

What if you are the master, and your slave is confused because you just gave him contradictory orders and he tries to go one way and then the other and then gets punched in his lips?

You can do what you want. As for me, I'm going to strike in the clinches, and if someone shoots on me I will sprawl on them, grind their face into the ground, circle to take the back, and mata leon.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Right. I think my point was that I am experiencing the exact same scenarios with contact on the bridge utilizing 2 arts with different goals - 1 to clinch, take down, and the other to strike and maintain control. No, 2 arts to not blend together more naturally where you simply instinctively choose each next move that will get you closer to that goal, when "that goal" is in fact "2 goals".

You sound like you understand another guys posts well enough to explain them but don't understand mine.

You're looking at the goal of the art. Look at your goal in the moment, instead. Do you want to take them down? Then the bridge tot the clinch is probably your natural bridge. I've never had any issue blending in new bits in to my personal stuff using that approach.

It might be a difference in overall mindset, too. No approach works for everyone.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if you are the master, and your slave is confused because ...

When the distance is

- far, you can kick or punch.
- close, you can lock or throw.

This is just general MA rule and there is no confuse there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because I don't "insist transition from my WC to grappling is hard and causes hesitation". Nor do I say it doesn't work. I hand fight all the time in competitive grappling competitions down to daily training matches. I even described a nuance of how i hand fight so that it works in congruence with my wing chun training.

I would postulate that you are trying to use TWC as a system to set up grappling, which it was not designed for. Any flow you think you are seeing now is because you are basically hand fighting. And yes, chi sau and wing chun can make you better a hand fighting. But the problem with hand fighting is it violates a basic tenet of wing chun to fight on the centerline and not chase hands. So I would say you are experiencing an illusion that will dissolve in a couple years in your training.

You commented that Juany's was being condescending - something I never read in his posts. Your last paragraph here, on the other hand, comes across as you predicting that he is mis-applying principles of TWC and will come to realize this when he is good enough. That comes across as significantly condescending, especially when paired with the "double-talk" comments. Since you pointed out where someone seemed condescending, I thought you'd want to know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What if you are the master, and your slave is confused because you just gave him contradictory orders and he tries to go one way and then the other and then gets punched in his lips?

You can do what you want. As for me, I'm going to strike in the clinches, and if someone shoots on me I will sprawl on them, grind their face into the ground, circle to take the back, and mata leon.

Since "the slave" in KFW's metaphor is the art, this doesn't make sense. Arts don't get confused. People do.