mastercole
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2011
- Messages
- 1,157
- Reaction score
- 14
Is one of these three principles of Hapkido greater, more relevant, more practices, less practiced, more obvious, less obvious than the other two?
Hwa Won Yu
- Thread starter mastercole
- Start date
oftheherd1
Senior Master
- Joined
- May 12, 2011
- Messages
- 4,685
- Reaction score
- 817
http://www.lvhapkido.com/?mode=main/principles
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-20897.html
http://kuksoolwon.wikia.com/wiki/Yu-Won-Hwa
In the Hapkido I learned, we acknowledged the three principles. I don't know that I ever learned a one definition is all meaning. From the above posts you can see some differences.
For example, not only are there circles in throws and some locking techniques, but in some strikes as well. If I throw a strike and part of the technique is to for example, strike the opponent's wrist and then strike his neck, it is more efficient and fast to strike in a circle. I don't have to stop the strike losing all momentum, then start the strike again. I can use a circle to keep the momentum and speed going. Easier to demonstrate that explain probably.
But they were not explained to me. The technique was. It took me a while to figure out what I was doing and why it was taught that way. For me it was that way. I don't know about other Hapkido teachers.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-20897.html
http://kuksoolwon.wikia.com/wiki/Yu-Won-Hwa
In the Hapkido I learned, we acknowledged the three principles. I don't know that I ever learned a one definition is all meaning. From the above posts you can see some differences.
For example, not only are there circles in throws and some locking techniques, but in some strikes as well. If I throw a strike and part of the technique is to for example, strike the opponent's wrist and then strike his neck, it is more efficient and fast to strike in a circle. I don't have to stop the strike losing all momentum, then start the strike again. I can use a circle to keep the momentum and speed going. Easier to demonstrate that explain probably.
But they were not explained to me. The technique was. It took me a while to figure out what I was doing and why it was taught that way. For me it was that way. I don't know about other Hapkido teachers.
Do you know if your particular branch of hapkido has any sort of kuk sool won connection? I don't know why but when I hear hwa won yu (I don't know if that is the correct order or not) I think kuk sool won for some reason.
[h=2][/h]
oftheherd1
Senior Master
- Joined
- May 12, 2011
- Messages
- 4,685
- Reaction score
- 817
To my knowledge, none at all. I never heard any reference to hwa won yu frankly, and had to google to realize it was what we just referred to as the three principles of non-resistance, water, and circular movement. My GM was very accostomed to teaching in English, and comfortable with it as well. He gave us English names for most all things instead of Korean names.
I would say that they are all equally important. And are heavily emphasized by all of my sabeom. My sabeom all have IHF (GM Myung's; apparently, there is another IHF that is Florida based if I am not mistaken) lineage.
If I am thinking of the same person, I believe he is from the same IHF as you, of which I am a member as well. GM Myong appointed me an IHF Regional Chief Instructor in 1990.
Doomx2001
Green Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 163
- Reaction score
- 6
I think one good question to that is: Do Hapkido masters teach Hwa Won Yu theory? In my opinion 99% do not. They teach techniques that have the methods of 'Hwa Won Yu', but I've never heard of teacher really going in depth on the subject. What I mean is if you ask a Wing Chun man about the 'centerline' he can talk about it all day. If you ask a Kenpo man about the Three Phase Concept, and again he will go on forever telling you all about the theory behind the concept. If you ask a random Hapkido teacher about Hwa Won Yu, they will tell you what it means (Harmony, water, circle), and that Hapkido uses these principles, and maybe they will demonstrate a technique or two, but after that not much. I'm sorry to deviate from the original question, I'm just always been curious about this. Are there any books or videos, or online references about Hwa Won Yu that actually go into alot of detail with examples?
Actually, I'd say that that is fairly accurate.
I know this thread is a few monthes old, but...
All HKD tech shoud be Harmonious, Circular and Flowing...that is HKD. If your technique is choppy, linear, broken etc, it is not HKD...
The body should work and move in the manner it was designed to. Technique should compliment the body, not work against it, thus circular...not linear
Techniques should flow smoothly and continuously from one to another, non stop...flowing
And the body should work in harmony, from bottom to top, the body must pivot and whip as a unified whole, or bend and snap (the bending of the spring) for particular techs.
I have had thiese concepts drilled into me almost from the very beginning of my training, just as the concept of being a water based science...flowing around a strength and wearing it down rather than meeting force with force, that I look for it in all HKD. And I know that all do not embrace these concepts...it is just part of our form.
Anyways, lol, that is my understanding of Hwa Won Yu
All HKD tech shoud be Harmonious, Circular and Flowing...that is HKD. If your technique is choppy, linear, broken etc, it is not HKD...
The body should work and move in the manner it was designed to. Technique should compliment the body, not work against it, thus circular...not linear
Techniques should flow smoothly and continuously from one to another, non stop...flowing
And the body should work in harmony, from bottom to top, the body must pivot and whip as a unified whole, or bend and snap (the bending of the spring) for particular techs.
I have had thiese concepts drilled into me almost from the very beginning of my training, just as the concept of being a water based science...flowing around a strength and wearing it down rather than meeting force with force, that I look for it in all HKD. And I know that all do not embrace these concepts...it is just part of our form.
Anyways, lol, that is my understanding of Hwa Won Yu
Doomx2001
Green Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 163
- Reaction score
- 6
I know this thread is a few monthes old, but...
All HKD tech shoud be Harmonious, Circular and Flowing...that is HKD. If your technique is choppy, linear, broken etc, it is not HKD...
The body should work and move in the manner it was designed to. Technique should compliment the body, not work against it, thus circular...not linear
Techniques should flow smoothly and continuously from one to another, non stop...flowing
And the body should work in harmony, from bottom to top, the body must pivot and whip as a unified whole, or bend and snap (the bending of the spring) for particular techs.
I have had thiese concepts drilled into me almost from the very beginning of my training, just as the concept of being a water based science...flowing around a strength and wearing it down rather than meeting force with force, that I look for it in all HKD. And I know that all do not embrace these concepts...it is just part of our form.
Anyways, lol, that is my understanding of Hwa Won Yu
Welcome to Martial Talk, and thanks for contributing! I look forward to hearing from you on a wide range of Hapkido subjects in the future.
- Brian
iron_ox
Black Belt
I know this thread is a few monthes old, but...
All HKD tech shoud be Harmonious, Circular and Flowing...that is HKD. If your technique is choppy, linear, broken etc, it is not HKD...
The body should work and move in the manner it was designed to. Technique should compliment the body, not work against it, thus circular...not linear
Techniques should flow smoothly and continuously from one to another, non stop...flowing
And the body should work in harmony, from bottom to top, the body must pivot and whip as a unified whole, or bend and snap (the bending of the spring) for particular techs.
I have had thiese concepts drilled into me almost from the very beginning of my training, just as the concept of being a water based science...flowing around a strength and wearing it down rather than meeting force with force, that I look for it in all HKD. And I know that all do not embrace these concepts...it is just part of our form.
Anyways, lol, that is my understanding of Hwa Won Yu
I am curious, how long have you done Hapkido? This is a well rationed and basic understanding of the three elements.
iron_ox
Black Belt
Although Hwa, Won, Yu do apply to techniques, they apply more to elements of fighting an opponent. It is quite difficult to express them in writing without also demonstrating their meaning. But I will include an example of how the principle of WON is described - and I am taking this from a direct translation so it sounds a bit cryptic.
The Principle of Won
It is the essential spirit of an adept of martial arts built upon the endless practice and cultivation of an iron hand in a velvet glove.
As there are an infinite number of blades of change inside the expressionless inner, the connection between a point and another point becomes a line and the bending of line becomes Won (circle). A sharp angle – which does not reveal its four sides – piercing the secluded inner core must be formed.
A head-to-head clash brings to both sides; in destroying the opponent’s strong force, one must not form a frontal destruction, which brings a loss in one’s own force.
The opponent’s attacking force is mostly linear; he is prepared and strong along the front and back in terms of the ability to balance himself.
On the other hand, the ability to balance laterally is very weak; one must destroy the opponent’s attacking force along the lines of Won.
The basic principle of handling an attack in a straight line with a sharp angle using the centrifugal force is called the Principle of Won.
How's that?
The Principle of Won
It is the essential spirit of an adept of martial arts built upon the endless practice and cultivation of an iron hand in a velvet glove.
As there are an infinite number of blades of change inside the expressionless inner, the connection between a point and another point becomes a line and the bending of line becomes Won (circle). A sharp angle – which does not reveal its four sides – piercing the secluded inner core must be formed.
A head-to-head clash brings to both sides; in destroying the opponent’s strong force, one must not form a frontal destruction, which brings a loss in one’s own force.
The opponent’s attacking force is mostly linear; he is prepared and strong along the front and back in terms of the ability to balance himself.
On the other hand, the ability to balance laterally is very weak; one must destroy the opponent’s attacking force along the lines of Won.
The basic principle of handling an attack in a straight line with a sharp angle using the centrifugal force is called the Principle of Won.
How's that?
Thanks Brian...Though I am not really new Just been away from surfing for a couple of years
Have been in HKD for 20+ yrs Kevin, 4th generation Hapkidoist.
Won is also used to describe a circle of influence...both yours, and your opponents. We teach that you are the center of you own universe...that you influence and control every thing that comes into contact with you. Just as you flick away a droplet of water on the back of your hand, or flick away an opponent that you have one body with...you are the center. I'm not sure I expand the meaning of Won this far, but I can see the parallel you are drawing. I more easily accept that you are doing these things "using" the principle. Wether the attack is linear or circular does not matter...in a circular attack, eg., round house, hook punch etc, we fall into the opponents flow, become the center, accelerate his momentum, and change direction...much easier than creating momentum in a linear attack
And to have or use centrifugal force, one must also compliment it with centripetal force It is fine to throw your mass out (centrifugal), but it also has to be pulled into the center (centripetal), which would be the "sharp angle" you describe. This is how we generate our "speed" or "spin around our fixed axis" when kicking, throwing, etc... the round house and spinning heel kicks show the use of these forces beautifully
Although Won is spoken mostly as it applies to our general direction of movement, we must push the concept further to encompass the circles in our pivots, our hips and shoulders when striking, the circles in our joint breaks etc...I believe this is where you will find the true generation of power in our strikes
Ahhh...I do so miss teaching, lol
[h=3][/h]
Just been away from surfing for a couple of years Have been in HKD for 20+ yrs Kevin, 4th generation Hapkidoist.
Won is also used to describe a circle of influence...both yours, and your opponents. We teach that you are the center of you own universe...that you influence and control every thing that comes into contact with you. Just as you flick away a droplet of water on the back of your hand, or flick away an opponent that you have one body with...you are the center. I'm not sure I expand the meaning of Won this far, but I can see the parallel you are drawing. I more easily accept that you are doing these things "using" the principle. Wether the attack is linear or circular does not matter...in a circular attack, eg., round house, hook punch etc, we fall into the opponents flow, become the center, accelerate his momentum, and change direction...much easier than creating momentum in a linear attack
And to have or use centrifugal force, one must also compliment it with centripetal force
It is fine to throw your mass out (centrifugal), but it also has to be pulled into the center (centripetal), which would be the "sharp angle" you describe. This is how we generate our "speed" or "spin around our fixed axis" when kicking, throwing, etc... the round house and spinning heel kicks show the use of these forces beautifully Although Won is spoken mostly as it applies to our general direction of movement, we must push the concept further to encompass the circles in our pivots, our hips and shoulders when striking, the circles in our joint breaks etc...I believe this is where you will find the true generation of power in our strikes
Ahhh...I do so miss teaching, lol
[h=3][/h]
Doomx2001
Green Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 163
- Reaction score
- 6
Mr. Bushido,
could you break down the principles and concepts of Hwa, Won, and Yu individually and maybe link a video to help illustrate this point?
The reason I ask is I appreciate your input (as well as everyone else), and I would really like to gain a deeper perspective/understanding of the three principles (Hwa Won Yu) from people such as yourself, and everyone else on this message board.
- Brian
could you break down the principles and concepts of Hwa, Won, and Yu individually and maybe link a video to help illustrate this point?
The reason I ask is I appreciate your input (as well as everyone else), and I would really like to gain a deeper perspective/understanding of the three principles (Hwa Won Yu) from people such as yourself, and everyone else on this message board.
- Brian
lol, calling me Mr. is like calling God a sinner Doom...it just don't fit
OK, I'll bite on this one for you, though I am not looking up a bunch of videos for you...I believe I can expound my thoughts without visual aids.
The concepts of Hwa, Won and Yu (yue), taken as a whole, is the third most important concept of HapKiDo.
I will speak of these both in the internal and physical aspects...
Hwa - Harmony...Harmonious. The mind and body must work in unison...the mind still while the body is in motion, and the mind active while the body is at rest. It is said that we give the mind knowledge, but we train the body to act and react. When your subumnim says that you must do a technique until it becomes yours, he means that the body must have absorbed the motion, and can perform this motion before the mind can think it.
But...the mind can control the body in very beneficial ways also. We can use the mind to control our heart rate, negate tunnel vision, activate an adrenaline dump etc..
Sooo...the mind and body must work in harmony, each knowing their part, and their time of importance.
I am sure there are others here much better versed in the internal aspects of the arts than I am, I am not very spiritual or internally focused, except as ait applies to fighting
Physically (and this is where I am most knowledgeable), the body must work as a whole. it must work without thought, and it must go from 0 to 100 in a split second. When the body moves, the mind stops. All thought ceases, and the body takes over. This is where your thousands of repetitions take over...your hundreds of hours or pivots exercises, your reaction as soon as you feel a touch, your generation of power without thought...It is all ingrained in your muscle memory. This is now your body working in harmony. Moving, acting and reacting, absorbing and countering, all without thought, but fully functional.
When you are pivoting, deflecting, extending, altering and striking without thought or stop, your body is in Hwa...it is acting in harmony.
Won - circiular...We know that 85% of all strikes, breaks and throws in HKD are circular...there are excetions, mostly those taken from certain chinese forms.
Spiritually of course, there is the concept of Yin and Yang in most of all martial sciences. I use the chinese term here, because it is the most universally known and accepted. HKD is no exception
Again...others can debate these aspects...
HKD is a circular science. Our body is designed to work in circles...our joints "rotate" in their sockets. Science dictates that 2 balls dropped from the same height, one dropped straight down, and one on a curved ramp, both will hit the ground at the same time, thus I=M*S squared comes into play ( I know, I know...it is an easier formula to demonstrate, lol), so again the circle. The sphere of influence based upon our pivots...circular. The concept of being the center of our universe...circular. The concept of using our body as a whip, again, circular.
To flow around our opponent, or to fall into or alter our opponents rythm is also based on understanding the direction and flow within our, or of the circle.
I'm not really happy with this break down, as I am trying to cover a lot of ground with it, and I am also expecting you to have more than a rudamentary understanding of HKD But I will expand on any thing you wish...
Yue - Flowing...Now, ideally in HKD, when we strike, we flow from one strike to the next, without break or stop. Just on the verge of control/being out of control with each strike...this is our true power...throwing all of our mass with every strike, as fast as we can and being centered and in stance at the moment of impact.
But it means more than this...it means that our body generates speed (thus Impact) from bottom to top. Our feet pivots, then our knees, then Hips, trunk, shoulders, elbows and finally wrists (assuming a hand attack), and they all "snap" just at the point of impact...then our body goes limp, we exhale, inhale, and "flow" into the next cycle or strike
There is also the give and take of forces in a fight...to "feel" the rythm, the ebb and flow in a fight, and absorbing that, making it your own, and then abruptly changing the timing
More basically, our training also flows...from the basics of a technique, to the more technical aspects of that same technique...until it becomes "your" technique.
HWA WON YUE - Harmonious, Circular, Flowing
OK, I'll bite on this one for you, though I am not looking up a bunch of videos for you...I believe I can expound my thoughts without visual aids.
The concepts of Hwa, Won and Yu (yue), taken as a whole, is the third most important concept of HapKiDo.
I will speak of these both in the internal and physical aspects...
Hwa - Harmony...Harmonious. The mind and body must work in unison...the mind still while the body is in motion, and the mind active while the body is at rest. It is said that we give the mind knowledge, but we train the body to act and react. When your subumnim says that you must do a technique until it becomes yours, he means that the body must have absorbed the motion, and can perform this motion before the mind can think it.
But...the mind can control the body in very beneficial ways also. We can use the mind to control our heart rate, negate tunnel vision, activate an adrenaline dump etc..
Sooo...the mind and body must work in harmony, each knowing their part, and their time of importance.
I am sure there are others here much better versed in the internal aspects of the arts than I am, I am not very spiritual or internally focused, except as ait applies to fighting
Physically (and this is where I am most knowledgeable
), the body must work as a whole. it must work without thought, and it must go from 0 to 100 in a split second. When the body moves, the mind stops. All thought ceases, and the body takes over. This is where your thousands of repetitions take over...your hundreds of hours or pivots exercises, your reaction as soon as you feel a touch, your generation of power without thought...It is all ingrained in your muscle memory. This is now your body working in harmony. Moving, acting and reacting, absorbing and countering, all without thought, but fully functional.When you are pivoting, deflecting, extending, altering and striking without thought or stop, your body is in Hwa...it is acting in harmony.
Won - circiular...We know that 85% of all strikes, breaks and throws in HKD are circular...there are excetions, mostly those taken from certain chinese forms.
Spiritually of course, there is the concept of Yin and Yang in most of all martial sciences. I use the chinese term here, because it is the most universally known and accepted. HKD is no exception
Again...others can debate these aspects...
HKD is a circular science. Our body is designed to work in circles...our joints "rotate" in their sockets. Science dictates that 2 balls dropped from the same height, one dropped straight down, and one on a curved ramp, both will hit the ground at the same time, thus I=M*S squared comes into play ( I know, I know...it is an easier formula to demonstrate, lol), so again the circle. The sphere of influence based upon our pivots...circular. The concept of being the center of our universe...circular. The concept of using our body as a whip, again, circular.
To flow around our opponent, or to fall into or alter our opponents rythm is also based on understanding the direction and flow within our, or of the circle.
I'm not really happy with this break down, as I am trying to cover a lot of ground with it, and I am also expecting you to have more than a rudamentary understanding of HKD
But I will expand on any thing you wish...Yue - Flowing...Now, ideally in HKD, when we strike, we flow from one strike to the next, without break or stop. Just on the verge of control/being out of control with each strike...this is our true power...throwing all of our mass with every strike, as fast as we can and being centered and in stance at the moment of impact.
But it means more than this...it means that our body generates speed (thus Impact) from bottom to top. Our feet pivots, then our knees, then Hips, trunk, shoulders, elbows and finally wrists (assuming a hand attack), and they all "snap" just at the point of impact...then our body goes limp, we exhale, inhale, and "flow" into the next cycle or strike
There is also the give and take of forces in a fight...to "feel" the rythm, the ebb and flow in a fight, and absorbing that, making it your own, and then abruptly changing the timing
More basically, our training also flows...from the basics of a technique, to the more technical aspects of that same technique...until it becomes "your" technique.
HWA WON YUE - Harmonious, Circular, Flowing
