How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[Xue Sheng]

There is something else to think about here, none of this is fighting, because if it was, Chen stylist will go for the knees if they feel it is the thing to do at the time, they train it in some lineages (Chen Family, and he is Chen family) in their push hands and tuishou

 

[zzj]

I actually like the video. I don't know how much wrestling training (or tai chi training, for that matter) the student has. He seems to move okay, and I recognize the techniques he's attempting. On the down side, he doesn't seem to commit to any take down and so never progresses past the entry (ie, at one point he drops about 5 inches for a leg and then stops, and at another he half heartedly attempts an arm drag), and his cardio is (remarkably) worse than mine! That's saying a lot. He seems to be relying a lot on his size and weight, rather than technique. Which kind of undermines any useful comparison. In other words, a high level A versus a low level B is likely to make "B" look inneffective.

The other guy, the teacher, looks pretty solid. His positioning is good and his hands are always in a good place to keep the big dude at range. Where I get a little wonky is when the big guy goes flying. I personally believe that he's "going" with the technique. how much? I don't know. But some, I'm sure.

I don't blame you for feeling a bit wonky about it, the aftermath of many Tai Chi moves have the fortunate/unfortunate distinction of looking somewhat fake. However, it is a sparring session, not a competition or life/death struggle, in that sense both sides would reasonably hold back or follow through to a degree.

 

[Transk53]

I have seen Man of Tai Chi and that was real. The MMA guy would have his backside handed to him on a spoon lol.

 

[mograph]

I have seen Man of Tai Chi and that was real. The MMA guy would have his backside handed to him on a spoon lol.

 

[Steve]

I don't blame you for feeling a bit wonky about it, the aftermath of many Tai Chi moves have the fortunate/unfortunate distinction of looking somewhat fake. However, it is a sparring session, not a competition or life/death struggle, in that sense both sides would reasonably hold back or follow through to a degree.

I'd be interested in feeling it for myself. The only way I'd know for sure is if it's done to me. I get that they're holding back somewhat, and at 45, believe me, I'm not interested in breaking myself or anyone else.

I'll say this, though. This is the first video of a tai chi guy I've ever seen where I could think, "Yeah, that looks like it could work." I don't know about all of it, but the way he moves, where he puts his hands, and most importantly, where his hips are in relation to the big guy, all make sense to me. It looks like he's favoring technique over mystical powers, and his techniques seem like they're grounded in reality. It looks less like chi balls and trickery and really resembles a high level judoka sparring with a lower level judoka who used to wrestle (and needs to run a few laps )

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'd be interested in feeling it for myself. The only way I'd know for sure is if it's done to me. I get that they're holding back somewhat, and at 45, believe me, I'm not interested in breaking myself or anyone else.

I'll say this, though. This is the first video of a tai chi guy I've ever seen where I could think, "Yeah, that looks like it could work." I don't know about all of it, but the way he moves, where he puts his hands, and most importantly, where his hips are in relation to the big guy, all make sense to me. It looks like he's favoring technique over mystical powers, and his techniques seem like they're grounded in reality. It looks less like chi balls and trickery and really resembles a high level judoka sparring with a lower level judoka who used to wrestle (and needs to run a few laps )

He is a Chen guy and a 20th generation Chen guy, and a damn good fighter trying to make his name with his family style, but he is focusing more on Sanshou than Taiji. My Taiji sifu is in his 70s, and a yang guy and there are no mystical powers, and his technique is grounded in reality and he will not look like that at all. He will be relaxed and looked relaxed (disturbingly so) and he will not force anything nor fight strength with strength. Would he stand there and challenge that guy, hell no, he's 70. however attack him and you might think it is mystical power not grounded in reality but you could end up on the floor just as easily. All he is doing is relaxing, finding your center and redirecting and his qinna is the best I have ever come across.

Basically just because you can't see it and it does not fit your style to make you feel it will work, does not make it unrealistic and mystical powers.

 

[Hanzou]

Firstly, my issue was with the assertion (from the video comment) that he was throwing himself backwards deliberately, as I stated in the first statement of my post.

And frankly he was. He was also exaggerating the impacts. Sorry, but I don't buy that this guy was getting internally damaged by a guy knocking him down, or shoulder throwing him on a matted surface.

I have no problem with the opinion that the title was misleading.

Secondly, it is a sparring session, not a demonstration. I do not know how it is in your dojo or school, but in both my judo and taichi classes, if you do not try earnestly when you have a chance to do randori/tuishou with your teacher, then you are simply wasting each other's time.

In my school when we spar, we utilize our entire toolkit. In that vid, the wrestler never attacked the legs or the hip area, he never went for an arm drag, he never attempted to break the other person's structure by putting his hand on the back of the head or neck. The wrestler went for a high clinch every time.

Now, when I demonstrated a move with my instructor, he told me what he wanted me to do in order to demonstrate a principle. When I spar against my instructor, I use everything in my bag of tricks to subdue him.

That video classifies as a demonstration.

These are all sparring videos, the only difference is, the 'wrestler' video was conducted in a venue with mats, which allowed for the full execution of throws, strikes, takedowns, resulting in greater effects.

Where were the strikes and takedowns? All I saw was a big guy trying to muscle down a smaller guy and get thrown, or pushed backwards. Don't get me wrong, its a cool demonstration, but to call that a sparring session is laughable.

 

[blindsage]

Considering this is a martial arts forum I'm amazed how many disrespecting a'holes there are in here towards those that have practiced, taught and semi retired/retired. Some of those getting older have done more MA than

Considering this is an MA forum some of you guys show an amazing amount of disrespect for older people.

Really? Considering this is a forum of mostly adults, some of you guys show an amazing amount of lack of humor and grown up ability to decipher context. But it's ok, the people who were supposed to get it got it.

 

[Steve]

And frankly he was. He was also exaggerating the impacts. Sorry, but I don't buy that this guy was getting internally damaged by a guy knocking him down, or shoulder throwing him on a matted surface.

In my school when we spar, we utilize our entire toolkit. In that vid, the wrestler never attacked the legs or the hip area, he never went for an arm drag, he never attempted to break the other person's structure by putting his hand on the back of the head or neck. The wrestler went for a high clinch every time.

Now, when I demonstrated a move with my instructor, he told me what he wanted me to do in order to demonstrate a principle. When I spar against my instructor, I use everything in my bag of tricks to subdue him.

That video classifies as a demonstration.

Where were the strikes and takedowns? All I saw was a big guy trying to muscle down a smaller guy and get thrown, or pushed backwards. Don't get me wrong, its a cool demonstration, but to call that a sparring session is laughable.

I agree that there were some times he was at least failing to engage in the clinch, and he seemed to go with the throws a bit. But I did see him move a couple times for an arm drag. Frankly, it seemed very much like what I've seen a lot of big, out of shape wrestlers do, which is to work mostly from the clinch. Good observation regarding the head control, but mostly, it looked like he was working for underhooks and just really failing to commit.

Laughable seems a little overstated to me. To me, this is about what i'd expect to see in medium intensity sparring. It doesn't look like big guy was discouraged from using all of his tools. Rather, it looks like the big guy is just lacking some fundamental tools to use.

How good is the little guy? Really hard to tell in this video, but I didn't see anything that screamed shenanigans to me.

 

[Steve]

Really? Considering this is a forum of mostly adults, some of you guys show an amazing amount of lack of humor and grown up ability to decipher context. But it's ok, the people who were supposed to get it got it.

I got it, but then I put some ointment on it and it went away. What were we talking about again?

 

[Hanzou]

I agree that there were some times he was at least failing to engage in the clinch, and he seemed to go with the throws a bit. But I did see him move a couple times for an arm drag. Frankly, it seemed very much like what I've seen a lot of big, out of shape wrestlers do, which is to work mostly from the clinch. Good observation regarding the head control, but mostly, it looked like he was working for underhooks and just really failing to commit.

Laughable seems a little overstated to me. To me, this is about what i'd expect to see in medium intensity sparring. It doesn't look like big guy was discouraged from using all of his tools. Rather, it looks like the big guy is just lacking some fundamental tools to use.

How good is the little guy? Really hard to tell in this video, but I didn't see anything that screamed shenanigans to me.

Well saying that this guy is a "wrestler" when he's clearly lacking any wrestling skill, and is a student of the person tossing him around, I would definitely say there's some shenanigans afoot. Also having this guy pretending to be significantly injured by shoves and a shoulder throw is also purely shenanigans. If they had simply said that this is Taiji against some big guy off the street, I'd have no problem with it. However the video is propped up as an expert in one style versus an expert in another style, and that's simply misleading.

I also don't agree that its sparring. It looks like more of a demonstration of a principle because neither is going all out with their entire toolkit. When I spar my instructor, I'm using everything to beat him. If he's using me to demonstrate a technique to the class, I'll moderately resist while he chokes me, throws me, locks me up, or something.

In the end, there's simply no reason for the deception. That's unfortunately been the MO of many Kung Fu styles trying to prove their relevancy in the modern era. They need to prove their practicality to the world at large, but there's always some sort of catch, something hiding behind the curtain.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well saying that this guy is a "wrestler" when he's clearly lacking any wrestling skill, and is a student of the person tossing him around, I would definitely say there's some shenanigans afoot. Also having this guy pretending to be significantly injured by shoves and a shoulder throw is also purely shenanigans. If they had simply said that this is Taiji against some big guy off the street, I'd have no problem with it. However the video is propped up as an expert in one style versus an expert in another style, and that's simply misleading.

I also don't agree that its sparring. It looks like more of a demonstration of a principle because neither is going all out with their entire toolkit. When I spar my instructor, I'm using everything to beat him. If he's using me to demonstrate a technique to the class, I'll moderately resist while he chokes me, throws me, locks me up, or something.

In the end, there's simply no reason for the deception. That's unfortunately been the MO of many Kung Fu styles trying to prove their relevancy in the modern era. They need to prove their practicality to the world at large, but there's always some sort of catch, something hiding behind the curtain.

Where have you been? We've missed you.

 

[zzj]

Well saying that this guy is a "wrestler" when he's clearly lacking any wrestling skill, and is a student of the person tossing him around, I would definitely say there's some shenanigans afoot. Also having this guy pretending to be significantly injured by shoves and a shoulder throw is also purely shenanigans. If they had simply said that this is Taiji against some big guy off the street, I'd have no problem with it. However the video is propped up as an expert in one style versus an expert in another style, and that's simply misleading.

I also don't agree that its sparring. It looks like more of a demonstration of a principle because neither is going all out with their entire toolkit. When I spar my instructor, I'm using everything to beat him. If he's using me to demonstrate a technique to the class, I'll moderately resist while he chokes me, throws me, locks me up, or something.

In the end, there's simply no reason for the deception. That's unfortunately been the MO of many Kung Fu styles trying to prove their relevancy in the modern era. They need to prove their practicality to the world at large, but there's always some sort of catch, something hiding behind the curtain.

Again. The title of the video IS misleading. But any shenanigans lie on the part of the poster, who is a 3rd party.

Different MA's have different 'Sparring' formats: you don't grapple in Tae kwon do, karate or Muay Thai... You don't exchange punches and kicks in judo, or for that matter in wrestling. The type of sparring you saw in the video is called tuishou, which is generally a standing affair without punches or kicks, with maybe allowances for secondary strikes like shoulder strikes as was seen. There is sanshou sparring in tai chi too which allows for a more complete range of techniques, but that is not what was going on in the video.

Lastly, whether the guy was significantly injured by the 'shove'. What I see in the video is that he fell in an awkward manner which knocked the wind out of him, something which was exacerbated by his size.

 

[Hanzou]

Again. The title of the video IS misleading. But any shenanigans lie on the part of the poster, who is a 3rd party.

Different MA's have different 'Sparring' formats: you don't grapple in Tae kwon do, karate or Muay Thai... You don't exchange punches and kicks in judo, or for that matter in wrestling. The type of sparring you saw in the video is called tuishou, which is generally a standing affair without punches or kicks, with maybe allowances for secondary strikes like shoulder strikes as was seen. There is sanshou sparring in tai chi too which allows for a more complete range of techniques, but that is not what was going on in the video.

Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.

Lastly, whether the guy was significantly injured by the 'shove'. What I see in the video is that he fell in an awkward manner which knocked the wind out of him, something which was exacerbated by his size.

Well, you can see whatever you wish to see. From what I saw, the level of impact didn't justify that level of response. I've seen novices in Judo and Aikido hit the ground harder than that, and pop right back up again regardless of size.

 

[Tez3]

you don't grapple in Tae kwon do, karate or Muay Thai...

Actually...in some karate we do. I hesitate to post this because there's usually a lot of 'stuff' coming from non karateka when we say this and it gets circular ( a nicer way to say it goes to hell in a handcart lol) and there's enough 'circular' arguments going on here at the moment.

 

[zzj]

Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.



Well, you can see whatever you wish to see. From what I saw, the level of impact didn't justify that level of response. I've seen novices in Judo and Aikido hit the ground harder than that, and pop right back up again regardless of size.

There are tuishou drills but there is also free sparring in tuishou. There are numerous videos of tuishou sparring sessions and competitions on YouTube.

There are instances when one takes a bad fall, whether or not that was the case in this video I cannot say for sure although it looks possible to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.



Well, you can see whatever you wish to see. From what I saw, the level of impact didn't justify that level of response. I've seen novices in Judo and Aikido hit the ground harder than that, and pop right back up again regardless of size.

And in your vast experience in push hands, you have seen it all? You are the expert?

Now THAT is funny stuff.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.

Then you have not really ever seen much tuishou then have you.

stationary, 1-step, 3-step, 4-corners, with applications, free style...... seen those have you?

 

[mograph]

Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.

Try this: it's on Facebook, so YMMV.
Gawain Siu Facebook

 

[drop bear]

Actually...in some karate we do. I hesitate to post this because there's usually a lot of 'stuff' coming from non karateka when we say this and it gets circular ( a nicer way to say it goes to hell in a handcart lol) and there's enough 'circular' arguments going on here at the moment.

You grapple in muay Thai as well.