How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[Xue Sheng]

Lord you people are old. I was six in '81 and I turned 40 this year. Don't you all have some kids on your lawn to yell at? Hey, do any of you know the form that uses this?

Now that you mention it yes....... HEY YOU!!!!!!! Get the heck off my lawn you young wiper snapper...and take you ding dang walker with ya....mumble mumble...kids today......mumble....no respect......I otta....YEAH....DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!!!!!! gall dang wet behind the ears....mumble..... no respect... mumble mumble...probably all hoped up on goofballs anyway....... now where'd I leave that dang cane of mine....... time to go watch my shows anyway...BAH!!!!! kids today

 

[donald1]

my grandpa does that a lot... except he is usualy the hees the only one in the room... i remember once he looked in the mirror and thought some old guy was trespassing

 

[punisher73]

Just for discussion. I remember seeing this video on Chen Tai Chi awhile back.

 

[Xue Sheng]

He is 20th generation Chen family, I'm thinking Chen Bing, but I could be wrong. The 20th generation guys are real big on Sanda and Shuiajiao in Chen style. Basically he had the big guys center the entire time. There are a few videos out there of Chen 20th training at Chenjaigou and on competition, if you can find those they get pretty hard and rather nasty.

 

[Hyoho]

Considering this is a martial arts forum I'm amazed how many disrespecting a'holes there are in here towards those that have practiced, taught and semi retired/retired. Some of those getting older have done more MA than

Lord you people are old. I was six in '81 and I turned 40 this year. Don't you all have some kids on your lawn to yell at? Hey, do any of you know the form that uses this?

Considering this is an MA forum some of you guys show an amazing amount of disrespect for older people.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Considering this is a martial arts forum I'm amazed how many disrespecting a'holes there are in here towards those that have practiced, taught and semi retired/retired. Some of those getting older have done more MA than

Considering this is an MA forum some of you guys show an amazing amount of disrespect for older people.

Considering I am over a half century old, been in MA for over 40 years, spent considerable time on crutches and using a cane not to long ago, have bad knees a arthritic hip and a shoulder to match and I. train with a guy who is in his late 70s who can throw me around like a rag doll all I can say is I thought it was funny and you really need to lighten up.....

 

[mograph]

Yeah, I think that because Blindsage is part of the in-group (as far as I can tell), the rest of us took it as a poke from "one of us." No offense taken, so it's cool. (I'm 55.) But thanks for the defence. (... with no irony, no sarcasm from me.)

Context is everything, ain't it?

 

[zzj]

He is 20th generation Chen family, I'm thinking Chen Bing, but I could be wrong. The 20th generation guys are real big on Sanda and Shuiajiao in Chen style. Basically he had the big guys center the entire time. There are a few videos out there of Chen 20th training at Chenjaigou and on competition, if you can find those they get pretty hard and rather nasty.

That's Chen Ziqiang in the clip. He's smaller in stature than his cousin Chen Bing, and in this case he weighs about half as much as the Wrestler guy he is throwing around.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's Chen Ziqiang in the clip. He's smaller in stature than his cousin Chen Bing, and in this case he weighs about half as much as the Wrestler guy he is throwing around.

Thank You, I was not sure, I don't know all the 20th Gen names. But I have seen him before, I believe he was in one of those TV matches in China too and he controlled that match just as easily

 

[Steve]

Just for discussion. I remember seeing this video on Chen Tai Chi awhile back.

Neat video. Is there any context for,this?

 

[Hanzou]

Neat video. Is there any context for,this?

While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.

 

[K-man]

Tai Chi name that I would put forward is Erle Montaigue. Unfortunately he passed away just over four years ago. My regret is I never got the chance to train with him.

As for 1981 ... that was about the time I started training with my, then seven year old, son. Seems like not so long ago really.

 

[drop bear]

While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.

From my instruction of wrestling. Which is brief but high quality. They don't stand like that or wrestle like that.

Because I did and have gotten in trouble for it.

 

[drop bear]

I showed that vid to my coach and he was like nup. That isn't legit wrestling.

 

[zzj]

While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.

I take issue with that comment about the wrestler throwing himself backwards.

The alleged incident is probably referring to 0.50 in the video, take a look for yourself and see if you agree with the comment.

For me the comment is obviously wrong due to 3 main reasons:

1) The wrestler was thrown backwards like a ragdoll, if you threw yourself backwards you wouldn't be able to replicate the ragdoll quality and the dynamics of the fall would look very different overall. To fall backwards as he did in the video, there would have to be a significant external force.

2) To non Tai Chi practitioners, it would seem like there was little in the way of any real strike that would have resulted in such a dramatic fall, but to us Tai Chi nuts the move was very obviously a 'Kao'. The thing with 'Internal' MA's like Tai Chi is not that we use some mysterious energy to throw chi balls and such (although for some reason that is still an oddly popular misconception), but that the focus and intricacies of our MA is not apparent externally, but the effect is often disproportionate to the move.

EDIT: just to add.. there is a lot more going on during the session that meets the eye, if you get in a clinch with an accomplished Tai Chi player you will immediately feel that your balance is taken from you, there would be a lot of back and forth between the 2 of them even without externally visible moves being attempted.

3) There are many videos of the person (Chen Ziqiang) engaging in tuishou (push hands) sparring sessions on his overseas visits very much like this one. The Kao move is used on numerous occasions to similar effect.

Lastly, also to address Steve's question, the wrestler is also a Tai Chi student. They were not engaged in a demonstration but Tui Shou sparring, and as I have mentioned, there are numerous other videos of other similar tuishou sparring videos on youtube, just have a look...

I would only agree with the sentiment that labeling the video as 'Wrestling vs Tai Chi' is somewhat misleading, when in fact it is a Tai Chi student with wrestling background engaged in sparring with his Teacher who happens to be one of the best Chen Style Tai Chi exponents of his generation.

 

[Hanzou]

I would only agree with the sentiment that labeling the video as 'Wrestling vs Tai Chi' is somewhat misleading, when in fact it is a Tai Chi student with wrestling background engaged in sparring with his Teacher who happens to be one of the best Chen Style Tai Chi exponents of his generation.

So after that lengthy post you admit that this was nothing more than a demonstration, and that the entire title of the video is misleading? Given that this guy was a student of the Taiji exponent, why would we believe that this guy was doing everything in his power to overpower his instructor? We've already established that the guy wasn't really wrestling, and his reactions to the impacts were laughable.

I'm not going to argue what you see versus what I see. My issue is the misleading title and content.

 

[mograph]

The movements of proficient Taijiquan practitioners often have an effect without the large displacement (e.g. a big windup or follow-through) we normally expect from a move. In other words, a short push can send an opponent a long way. This isn't magic or energy balls, this is efficiency and distribution of effort throughout the body.

 

[zzj]

So after that lengthy post you admit that this was nothing more than a demonstration, and that the entire title of the video is misleading? Given that this guy was a student of the Taiji exponent, why would we believe that this guy was doing everything in his power to overpower his instructor? We've already established that the guy wasn't really wrestling, and his reactions to the impacts were laughable.

I'm not going to argue what you see versus what I see. My issue is the misleading title and content.

Firstly, my issue was with the assertion (from the video comment) that he was throwing himself backwards deliberately, as I stated in the first statement of my post.

I have no problem with the opinion that the title was misleading.

Secondly, it is a sparring session, not a demonstration. I do not know how it is in your dojo or school, but in both my judo and taichi classes, if you do not try earnestly when you have a chance to do randori/tuishou with your teacher, then you are simply wasting each other's time.

And why is it that I can assert it is not a demonstration?

1) This video has been posted under different descriptions, such as ....

...that reflect the context better.

2) Similar videos that record other seminar sessions more comprehensively ....

For example, these videos for 1 particular seminar.

... I'm not going to post all 7 videos.

Or this video from Denver..

These are all sparring videos, the only difference is, the 'wrestler' video was conducted in a venue with mats, which allowed for the full execution of throws, strikes, takedowns, resulting in greater effects.

 

[Xue Sheng]

While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.

Not arguing either way but this is posted under the video on YouTube

Video by M Christovano Pacelli‎. Here's his few words regarding the event in this video:

Well, in the immortal words of my belated teacher Michael Rosario-Graycar... I was concussed!

Definitely puked a few times and am still a bit blurry, but here is something to spread out to everyone. Please keep in mind that, as far as I could tell, he was using about 50% of his power with me (The highest he has ever used on a video... everything else your going to see from the weekend was at the lower level of his fajin. Chen Laoshi was a gentleman for not hitting me with every strike in the book.

That is about all your going to see (Litigation and Liability are not words that go well with this stuff). The things you see him doing were thoroughly reviewed. Since he knew I wouldn't bee suing him... I got the brunt. But the man will take on any challenger, and use full force (in China!!) height and weight not important.

I want to thank all of the wonderful practitioners that supported this seminar. Everyone knows I don't have a school, and I don't teach... but I will bang!!! I am happy to offer my body on the alter of Chen Taijiquan. I can't list everyone, but you know who you are and I will continue to make the effort. You are all worth it!

As far as the ensuing comments... I am in a lot of pain, and seeing a little funny, but I can remember using all of my force. The man is no joke! Please enjoy. I need to lay down now..!

Also note that Taijiquan is not wrestling it is Taijiquan and in it you find things like Shuaijiao which is the closest you will get to wrestling. Also if you are so inclined there are videos out there of Chen Ziqiang in competition in China. I have no plans to supply links because frankly it really does not matter much to me since the entire premise of this post, as set up by the OP, is silly and not to be taken seriously IMO

 

[Steve]

I actually like the video. I don't know how much wrestling training (or tai chi training, for that matter) the student has. He seems to move okay, and I recognize the techniques he's attempting. On the down side, he doesn't seem to commit to any take down and so never progresses past the entry (ie, at one point he drops about 5 inches for a leg and then stops, and at another he half heartedly attempts an arm drag), and his cardio is (remarkably) worse than mine! That's saying a lot. He seems to be relying a lot on his size and weight, rather than technique. Which kind of undermines any useful comparison. In other words, a high level A versus a low level B is likely to make "B" look inneffective.

The other guy, the teacher, looks pretty solid. His positioning is good and his hands are always in a good place to keep the big dude at range. Where I get a little wonky is when the big guy goes flying. I personally believe that he's "going" with the technique. how much? I don't know. But some, I'm sure.