How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[sinthetik_mistik]

I didn't read all 13 page of this forum, and i really don't know enough about either martial art to say with conviction which would win (though i would guess MMA to be honest) one fact i found interesting is that Bolo Yeung's favorite martial art is Tai Chi. not what you'd expect from a man with muscles the size of... well i don't want to come across as being prejudiced

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One time I asked a Taiji instructor, "Which move will you use to kill your opponent if you have to?" He looked at me as if I came from another planet.

IMO, you need "finish moves" to finish a fight. What kind of "finish moves" will Taiji guys likes to use? As far as I can remember, no Taiji guy like to talk about this and I don't know why.

 

[mograph]

One time I asked a Taiji instructor, "Which move will you use to kill your opponent if you have to?" He looked at me as if I came from another planet.

IMO, you need "finish moves" to finish a fight. What kind of "finish moves" will Taiji guys likes to use? As far as I can remember, no Taiji guy like to talk about this and I don't know why.

If a student had asked that of my Yiquan sifu, he would have turned away and ignored the student until he left. (That might explain the look you got.) Such a question would indicate to a teacher that the inquirer were more belligerent than he were wise ... or that the inquirer watches too many sport matches or Kung Fu movies and doesn't understand the real, lasting consequences of street fighting. As a result, a taijiquan teacher would not want to teach that student, much less tell him what move could be used to kill somebody. Not only would it give someone ideas on how to kill somebody, it might get back to the teacher if things go wrong and the student were to actually kill somebody. Reflect on this, please.

A taijiquan aim is to end the fight, not to end the person. How? If we can't talk them down, discourage them, or run away (and we had to fight), we might stomp on their instep or we might break the knee with a low kick (from the side) so they can't stand or walk. Then we'd walk away, or stand at a distance and call 911 or whatever.

Now, before you reply, I know you wrote "if you have to," but that leads me to ask: when does a law-abiding civilian have to kill somebody in hand-to-hand combat? If the opponent were belligerent, we would just need to take away their means to be belligerent: take the knife, the gun, the mobility (hence the foot/knee stomp/kick). Or maybe we'd break their arm. Then we'd walk/run away or stand at a distance and call the cops as I described above.

If someone doesn't understand the concept of fighting that I've just described (along with its inherent distaste for street fighting), then sorry, no taijiquan teacher worth his salt would teach him anything.

 

[Tez3]

If someone doesn't understand the concept of fighting that I've just described (along with its inherent distaste for street fighting),

This is such a good answer for many reasons.

I know some people enjoy these style v style 'conversations', they like imagining some sort of film scenario where fighters from different styles go around challenging each other but most mature martial artists don't think like that. MMA is for people who like to fight competitively, not brawl on the street, they enjoy the mental challenge of outwitting their opponents with physical moves. Most MMA fighters are very sportsmanlike and while it may look like it during bouts don't' actually want to hurt their opponents. Thinking of them as thugs who brawl on the street is a huge disservice. I enjoy taking part in MMA it's a challenge and it's fun. I also practice Wado Ryu karate, have done for many years, it was designed as other karate styles were for civilian self defence again not for brawling or challenging people to see who is best. It is for defending yourself and like taijiquan not for destroying people.

 

[mograph]

This is such a good answer for many reasons.

I know some people enjoy these style v style 'conversations', they like imagining some sort of film scenario where fighters from different styles go around challenging each other but most mature martial artists don't think like that.

... Most MMA fighters are very sportsmanlike and while it may look like it during bouts don't' actually want to hurt their opponents.

... I also practice Wado Ryu karate, have done for many years, it was designed as other karate styles were for civilian self defence again not for brawling or challenging people to see who is best. It is for defending yourself and like taijiquan not for destroying people.

Yes. Thanks for reminding us of the point of martial arts, not just Taijiquan.

 

[Tez3]

Yes. Thanks for reminding us of the point of martial arts, not just Taijiquan.

The thanks are mine to you for such a good, common sense post. ( I wish we had the little bowing chap emoticon back!)

 

[mograph]

Thanks. Yeah, it used to be :asian: , but that seems to have been lost. Oh, well ...

 

[TSDTexan]

My money is on the guy who has "fully" mastered the 113 movement (long form) Yang style. He is going to be taken for a weakling, and therein, the pride of the MMA fighter will be his undoing.

 

[Tez3]

My money is on the guy who has "fully" mastered the 113 movement (long form) Yang style. He is going to be taken for a weakling, and therein, the pride of the MMA fighter will be his undoing.

What 'pride'? MMA fighters are sportsmanlike and as humble as any other martial artist, discount what you see on the television, that's showmanship designed by promotions to bring in the ticket money.
I also know good MMA fighters who are CMA trained.

 

[Hanzou]

My money is on the guy who has "fully" mastered the 113 movement (long form) Yang style. He is going to be taken for a weakling, and therein, the pride of the MMA fighter will be his undoing.

I would love to see that happen, and I'm not being sarcastic. That would shake the MMA world to its core, and make things even more interesting.

However, we both know that's never going to happen for whatever reason.

Until then, we'll always have this;

[/QUOTE]

 

[TSDTexan]

What 'pride'? MMA fighters are sportsmanlike and as humble as any other martial artist, discount what you see on the television, that's showmanship designed by promotions to bring in the ticket money.
I also know good MMA fighters who are CMA trained.

Well, my answer (to the OP) was part tongue in cheek. But if I were going to be serious...
I assert that just because the pride is not "supposed to be" in an MMA fighter doesn't mean it isn't there. Almost every hard stylist I know believes they could take a tai chi guy, almost to the degree that "I wouldn't fight that guy, I would hurt or kill him. It wouldn't be fair".

That level of admitted confidence doesn't extend to EVERY hard stylist. Being a gentleman has nothing to do with it, and at the same time shows that a certain element of pride is present.

 

[Tez3]

Almost every hard stylist I know believes they could take a tai chi guy, QUOTE]

Tai Chi to most people is the slow moving style that old people and others do for exercise, not a fighting style. If you said to most MMA people about fighting a Tai Chi person they'd look at you as if you were mad, only CMA people tend to know about Tai Chi as being anything other than an exercise system.
I'm certainly no gentleman when it comes to anything never mind martial arts.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yeah.. I was saying the same thing back on the bunkai thread, that you were saying here. My first intro to tai chi was a short staff weapons form. And that was it. I didn't even know it was called tai chi, at the time. I didn't know the name, cause my neighbor who taught me knew zero English, as He was a Chinese immigrant old man. And apparently that was all he knew or was willing to teach.

 

[Jacknplan]

Hi guys!

New to the forum and I am a Tai Chi practitioner. I'm bewildered by how simplistic many of you think fighting is... There it's lots of variables to take into account to judge 2 people's skills.

MMA is sport orientated, thus includes lots of aerobic and stamina building exercises - Tai Chi can also be seen as a combat sport if entered into competitions.

A man with no fitness cannot take on a fully fledged athlete - which many MMA fighters are.

Now, here is an example of a UFC fighter, who studies Yang Style Tai Chi and fights within UFC against MMA stylists. If you observe, this man walks and talks Tai Chi - with his fists. I know his trainer and can vouch for the authenticity of Nicks Tai Chi - his trainer being a man highly respected in the WCK community.

 

[Tez3]

I'm very aware of Nick, I've watched him for a while now but would remind you that when competing in MMA he is an MMA fighter, he isn't just doing Tai Chi no more than any other fighter is just using a single style.
Many people are still missing the point of MMA even though it's name gives it away, it's mixed martial arts. Yes, many fighters will have a primary art but in an MMA competition they are using as many as needed to win. No single style is 'best' in MMA, that would negate the point of MMA, the whole point is to mix up styles, and not have a style versus style fight.

 

[TSDTexan]

Just for discussion. I remember seeing this video on Chen Tai Chi awhile back.

Ragdoll'd

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hi guys!

New to the forum and I am a Tai Chi practitioner. I'm bewildered by how simplistic many of you think fighting is... There it's lots of variables to take into account to judge 2 people's skills.

MMA is sport orientated, thus includes lots of aerobic and stamina building exercises - Tai Chi can also be seen as a combat sport if entered into competitions.

A man with no fitness cannot take on a fully fledged athlete - which many MMA fighters are.

Now, here is an example of a UFC fighter, who studies Yang Style Tai Chi and fights within UFC against MMA stylists. If you observe, this man walks and talks Tai Chi - with his fists. I know his trainer and can vouch for the authenticity of Nicks Tai Chi - his trainer being a man highly respected in the WCK community.

A few things concerning Osipczak ...

From what I understand, he primarily trained in Tai Chi during his 5 year hiatus in MMA competition from 2010 to 2015. He returned to MMA this year but has only one fight (a win) so far as a self-identified Tai Chi exponent. The video above was posted 2 years ago - so the fights depicted are prior to his immersion in the internal arts.

Based on an interview from shortly before his return to MMA, it sounds like the primary influence of the Tai Chi on his fighting style is the stuff he's learned about principles and quality of body movement, rather than specific techniques. This makes perfect sense to me.

As Tez points out, Tai Chi is just one of the elements of Osipczak's style.

 

[TSDTexan]

A few things concerning Osipczak ...

From what I understand, he primarily trained in Tai Chi during his 5 year hiatus in MMA competition from 2010 to 2015. He returned to MMA this year but has only one fight (a win) so far as a self-identified Tai Chi exponent. The video above was posted 2 years ago - so the fights depicted are prior to his immersion in the internal arts.

Based on an interview from shortly before his return to MMA, it sounds like the primary influence of the Tai Chi on his fighting style is the stuff he's learned about principles and quality of body movement, rather than specific techniques. This makes perfect sense to me.

As Tez points out, Tai Chi is just one of the elements of Osipczak's style.

Hi Tony.

I am in agreement here... and I pretty much think until MMA really gets serious coverage and traction in China we are not going to see traditional CMA on film. Even then with rulesets we will only see part of the self defense applications.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Osipczak actually posted on MartialTalk a couple of times back in 2013 to talk about himself in the third person and promote his website, but he didn't stick around to actually carry on a conversation. Too bad. I'd love to hear more detail about how he feels his Tai Chi training has benefited his MMA.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I said this before on MT, I had a conversation a few years back with an MMA guy and he was willing to train anything that he felt would help him win. At that time he was training Qigong because he felt it helped his relaxation in the ring. He also had a whole lot of questions about taijiquan.

Also talked with a taiji guy who decided to go off and train MMA for a bit and he was having a ball. He was learning how to better use what he had learned under pressure, and the MMA folks were learning how to deal with someone with a good root. As far as he was concerned it was a win win situation on both sides