How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[Flying Crane]

The issue is that when tested against brute force and shoving it falls apart which is your observation of competition. And you blame the comp and not the taiji.

Yet monograph has observed technical taiji working against shoving. Still in competition.

So the testing is refining the taiji into a usable system that has demonstrable evidence rather than being watered down.

This is true with a lot of technique and what people don't understand if they haven't used their stuff under pressure.

I do this to the wrong sort of bjjer as an example. In that I will just maul the guy and see if he holds up.

Nope. People who compete don't understand what skills push hands is supposed to develop. The competition becomes something else, not push hands. Push hands is not meant to be competitive in the way a competition like that makes it.

Face it: Taiji and push hands is something you simply to not understand. It's something you will ever understand from watching you tube.

 

[drop bear]

You are describing exactly as I teach it to be used in my training. I wasn't questioning its martial application in the general sense. I was questioning Hanzou's or Drop Bear's understanding of it which seems to be simply black or white.

You have this idea that a complete system exists anywhere.

And it just doesn't. Boxing does not have good takedown defence but has martial application.

You were trying to overcomplicate things.

 

[drop bear]

Nope. People who compete don't understand what skills push hands is supposed to develop. The competition becomes something else, not push hands. Push hands is not meant to be competitive in the way a competition like that makes it.

Face it: Taiji and push hands is something you simply to not understand. It's something you will ever understand from watching you tube.

I don't have to. I can understand shoving and i have countered the taiji.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't have to. I can understand shoving and i have countered the taiji.

Oh now that is funny.

Again, you show your ignorance.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nobody says you shouldn't train to develop realistic skills. If you want to be able to fight, then of course you have to. Nobody says otherwise.

What people apparently don't understand is that push hands is not the way to do that. As I've said a few times now, push hands is not fighting. Push hands translates poorly into a competition. Push hands is a drill meant to develop certain skills. How one does directly with push hands when it's forced into a competition method is no indicator of how well he can fight. The skills he develops in training push hands, however, do translate into fighting and are useful in other context. But push hands itself is a very poor platform from which to claim fighting ability.

I realize a lot of people have little or no direct experience with this, and may not be able to understand it. So some of us try to explain it. But without some actual quality experience, apparently you may never understand it. That's the way it is with some of these things.

 

[drop bear]

Oh now that is funny.

Again, you show your ignorance.

I am not saying I am not ignorant on the subject. I am just working off what I am reading here.

And there seems to be a taiji that works in competition,that works in sparring,that works across systems. But your taiji doesn't.

We have been told that even a technical taiji works in those environments. Just not your version.

So apart from you learning the super secret that honestly as an argument translates to no justification

I am just not sure how you are justifying your position here.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am not saying I am not ignorant on the subject. I am just working off what I am reading here.

And there seems to be a taiji that works in competition,that works in sparring,that works across systems. But your taiji doesn't.

We have been told that even a technical taiji works in those environments. Just not your version.

So apart from you learning the super secret that honestly as an argument translates to no justification

I am just not sure how you are justifying your position here.

Because you don't understand it.

And no, I didn't learn it. I studied long enough to understand that it's not a good method for me. But I do have a sense of it.

Try this. Balance is useful in fighting. But you would never base someone's ability to fight on how well he trains on the balance beam.

Likewise, strength can be useful. But you would never equate doing push ups with being able to fight.

That's what push hands is. It develops useful skills, but itself is not fighting. Push-ups develop useful strength, but is not fighting. Working on a balance beam develops useful skills, but is not fighting. Hell, even hitting a heavy bag develops useful skills, but is not fighting. You would never (I hope, at least) develop a competition centered around hitting a heavy bag and pretend that equates to one's true fighting skills.

If you can't understand these comparisons, you will never get it. Hey, I've tried to educate you on it. It's up to you to get it or recognize that without some direct experience of a certain quality you will simply never get it.

 

[mograph]

I think that you guys may not be so far away from each other. Would you all agree that:

• valid competitions do not always need to involve skills that one might use in combat (e.g. fitness competitions)
  
• push hands (alone) is not suitable for combat
• shoving matches are force-against-force: not high-level taijiquan sensing/yin/yang skill
• players in a push hands competition may or may not display high-level taijiquan sensing skills

 

[drop bear]

I think that you guys may not be so far away from each other. Would you all agree that:

• valid competitions do not always need to involve skills that one might use in combat (e.g. fitness competitions)
  
• push hands (alone) is not suitable for combat
• shoving matches are force-against-force: not high-level taijiquan sensing/yin/yang skill
• players in a push hands competition may or may not display high-level taijiquan sensing skills

The shoving is important or people get to caught up with the technical and move away from the practical.

I have seen people who are technically skilled get bullied into defeat. And that is also something you have to experience to understand.

If you can overcome that you gain a new skill set.

 

[mograph]

The shoving is important or people get to caught up with the technical and move away from the practical.

So you disagree with point #1?

 

[drop bear]

So you disagree with point #1?

I agree with all of your points.

 

[drop bear]

Because you don't understand it.

And no, I didn't learn it. I studied long enough to understand that it's not a good method for me. But I do have a sense of it.

Try this. Balance is useful in fighting. But you would never base someone's ability to fight on how well he trains on the balance beam.

Likewise, strength can be useful. But you would never equate doing push ups with being able to fight.

That's what push hands is. It develops useful skills, but itself is not fighting. Push-ups develop useful strength, but is not fighting. Working on a balance beam develops useful skills, but is not fighting. Hell, even hitting a heavy bag develops useful skills, but is not fighting. You would never (I hope, at least) develop a competition centered around hitting a heavy bag and pretend that equates to one's true fighting skills.

If you can't understand these comparisons, you will never get it. Hey, I've tried to educate you on it. It's up to you to get it or recognize that without some direct experience of a certain quality you will simply never get it.

Like speed bag championships.

 

[K-man]

You have this idea that a complete system exists anywhere.

And it just doesn't. Boxing does not have good takedown defence but has martial application.

You were trying to overcomplicate things.

I don't know what you are talking about. Push hands is not a complete system. It is a means of training a very small but important part of a system.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think that you guys may not be so far away from each other. Would you all agree that:

• valid competitions do not always need to involve skills that one might use in combat (e.g. fitness competitions)
  
• push hands (alone) is not suitable for combat
• shoving matches are force-against-force: not high-level taijiquan sensing/yin/yang skill
• players in a push hands competition may or may not display high-level taijiquan sensing skills

I can agree with that, with the caveat that for the first one, it needs to be understood that it is no indicator of ones ability to fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

Like speed bag championships.

Exactly. He has some skills from training the speed bag that may well be useful in fighting. But what he can do on the bag in and of itself is no guarantee that he can fight at all. And whether or not I can match his skills on the bag is no indicator one way or the other if I could defeat him in a real fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

The shoving is important or people get to caught up with the technical and move away from the practical.

I have seen people who are technically skilled get bullied into defeat. And that is also something you have to experience to understand.

If you can overcome that you gain a new skill set.

I understand what you are getting at here, but that is what undermines the purpose of push hands. Competition drives the desire to "win" and that can get in the way of the process of learning and developing a skill. When people go for the win in push hands and start shoving like that, it disrupts the learning. People have "success" with the shoving and they then believe that they are good at push hands, and they believe that is what push hands is all about. But it simply isn't. That's why I keep saying, push hands is a training drill. It is not fighting, it is not sparring, and it is an extremely poor platform for competition.

Competition push hands is kind of like getting together with someone to work on some defense skills off of punching attacks, but the first thing you do is start kicking your training partner in the shins and never is a punch thrown. You just turned the whole experience into something else, but you still want to pretend that you trained some good punch defenses.

If a Taiji guy wants to spar and compete in some venue, that is his choice to make. But push hands is a poor way to do it, and it's a poor way to judge someone's skills.

 

[mograph]

I think there may be differences regarding the definition and goals of the concept of a competition?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying that performance in a push hands competition is proof of how well someone can fight.

 

[mograph]

It could probably be said that sensitive push-hands skill is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for high-level taijiquan skill.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know what you are talking about. Push hands is not a complete system. It is a means of training a very small but important part of a system.

So is boxing.