How will Tai Chi help me become a better martial artist?

[JowGaWolf]

What we need more in this forum is the sharing of personal anecdotes or experience. What is the use of discussing CMA vs western boxing from a theoretical perspective?

Totally agree so I'll add my 2 cents. Boxers are limited on the the number of attacks that they can do. Their entire training is based on punching so they are good at punching. What they aren't good at is defending against kicks and grappling. I sparred against a boxer before and I was at a disadvantage as long as the rules were "punch only." However I had the advantage when kicks were allowed. Even if I didn't use a kick, I would move my leg in a way that made my opponent think I was going to kick, so that I could land a punch. Both boxers were good with moving out of the way with a punch, I was better at parrying a punch. The jabs weren't necessary more powerful than mine, they just had a better experience in reading what a punch looks like.

I think in a real fight I would do well even if punches were the only thing thrown. I say this because I'm good at a technique that is used to break the punching hand, so for me I don't have to hit the boxer's head or body to win. The same can't be said for the boxer since their training only includes punching the face and the body. If I "Play the boxing game" then I'll lose. I have a larger range of attack and defense options so I'm not only stuck with the jab, hook, cross, and upper cup options.

A few months ago I actually posted a video of a boxer jabbing me from the outside with no problem. I also posted a video a few months before that, showing me going against the same person but using my feet this time. It was a huge difference.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, much of this discussion is pointless and doesn't help the OP at all.

It's a good think that the OP got his answer on the first couple of pages.

 

[ChenAn]

JoeGaWolf did you spar with amateur boxer?


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[JowGaWolf]

JoeGaWolf did you spar with amateur boxer?


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Yes. He used to do amateur boxing competitively before he did Kung Fu. It was hard for him to not rely on his boxing skills, which was good for the other students because it was like fighting someone who didn't do kung fu. It was bad for him because it made it more difficult for him to learn how to fight using kung fu.

 

[ChenAn]

Try with semi-pro there will be different picture


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[JowGaWolf]

Try with semi-pro there will be different picture


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I think it will still be the same. The only difference is that the punches will come in faster and harder. Also the movement will be faster. If a person doesn't train to deal with kicks and sweeps then there's no way he can be effective in defending against them. Professional boxers even understand this. Are boxing skills valuable definitely, the moment a boxer starts training outside of the limitations of boxing is the exact moment he is no longer a boxer. yes he has boxing skills, but he's no longer fighting as a boxer. Physically and mentally. Here's your boxer vs kicker video.

I understand that the skill of a fighter's ability determines the outcome. But having a wider range of options for attacks and defense goes a long way.


Main Options of attack that a boxer has and will go for:
1. Punch body
2. Punch head

Main Options of attack that I have in my skill set as a martial artist.
1. Punch body
2. Attack joints (elbow, knee, fingers)
3. Punch head
4. Attack feet (sweeps)
5. Attack calves
6. Attack thigh
7. Kick body
8. Kick head
9. Kick legs
7. Kick feet (it's more of a chop with my heel into the inside of the foot)
8. Grappling (legs, and arms, including joint locks)

Types of attacks boxers have
1. Jab
2. Cross
3. Hook
4. Upper Cut

Types of attacks that I have
1. Jab
2. Cross
3. Hook
4. Upper Cut
5. Palm strikes
6. Front kick
7. Side kick
8. Sweep
9. Luk Choi
10. Pow Choi
11. Kup Choi
12. Elbows
13. Knee

What a boxer targets
1. Head
2. Body

What a martial artist targets
1. Everything that is in reach including attacking the punches and kicks that are thrown at him.

 

[ChenAn]

I've been practicing martial arts since 1984. One thing I learnt when I started competing was that out of the whole arsenal of my kicks and punches and throws really worked only about 10 % of it. As much as delusional I was that learning experience came with heavy tag of disappointment and reevaluation.

Western boxers who are seriously practicing realize that much sooner; therefore, even their assets lack verity the know how really stick it and achieve good result.

Considering really stressful life scenario of self-defense one can expect that a lot of thing will just condensed in very simple set of techniques. Unless sure practitioner is experienced fighter


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[JowGaWolf]

I've been practicing martial arts since 1984. One thing I learnt when I started competing was that out of the whole arsenal of my kicks and punches and throws really worked only about 10 % of it. As much as delusional I was that learning experience came with heavy tag of disappointment and reevaluation.

Western boxers who are seriously practicing realize that much sooner; therefore, even their assets lack verity the know how really stick it and achieve good result.

Considering really stressful life scenario of self-defense one can expect that a lot of thing will just condensed in very simple set of techniques. Unless sure practitioner is experienced fighter


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The same 10% of techniques that I would use for one fighter may not be the same 10% techniques on another fighter.

My training is probably different from most:
I first take the things that are easy for me to do and I learn how to be efficient in applying those things. These are my basics (which you call very simple set of techniques). Once I have my basics down, then I'll pick a slightly difficult technique and I practice that technique and learn to apply it until it becomes as strong as my basics. Now a technique that was slightly difficult is now a simple technique. I keep training like this and what happens is that my advanced techniques are slowly becoming my simple techniques. The 13 types of attacks that I listed I can do effectively on the most basic level. Some are probably advance things that I now consider basic To give you an example, some would consider sweeps to be an advanced technique, but for me those things are easy for me, but only because of the way that I train.

Considering a really stressful life scenario of self-defense all of the options I stated would still be available to me. The only thing I need to make sure it that I apply the correct technique to the correct situation. No matter how badly I want to throw someone, they may never get into a position that will allow me to use my throwing technique. When that happens I don't need to force a throwing technique. I need to use a technique that fits the situation.

The boxer in the video didn't have an option for defending or attacking the kick, because there are not options for a kick in boxing. His opponent understood that. Count how many kicks where thrown at the boxer. Out of all the techniques that could have been thrown it only took one technique to exploit the hole in boxing.

I used to teach teens self defense class and when ever we sparred I would kick them, knowing that they didn't have an option for attacking or defending a kick. The first thing that came out of their mouths was "That's not fair" and "Most people don't kick in a fight." My reply to them was, "That's why I'm kicking you." If I spar against a boxer and try to play by his rules, then I'll lose. If I spar against a boxer and force him to deal with my rules then my chances for winning greatly increase. If you look at all of the street fights on Youtube you can see that most are about punching and not kicking. My goal is always to fight where my opponent isn't. In other words if my opponent isn't thinking about his root or protecting his legs then that's what I'm going to go for.

Boxing doesn't train for kicks or takedowns, which is fine because that's what boxing is. Punching

 

[Touch Of Death]

The same 10% of techniques that I would use for one fighter may not be the same 10% techniques on another fighter.

My training is probably different from most:
I first take the things that are easy for me to do and I learn how to be efficient in applying those things. These are my basics (which you call very simple set of techniques). Once I have my basics down, then I'll pick a slightly difficult technique and I practice that technique and learn to apply it until it becomes as strong as my basics. Now a technique that was slightly difficult is now a simple technique. I keep training like this and what happens is that my advanced techniques are slowly becoming my simple techniques. The 13 types of attacks that I listed I can do effectively on the most basic level. Some are probably advance things that I now consider basic To give you an example, some would consider sweeps to be an advanced technique, but for me those things are easy for me, but only because of the way that I train.

Considering a really stressful life scenario of self-defense all of the options I stated would still be available to me. The only thing I need to make sure it that I apply the correct technique to the correct situation. No matter how badly I want to throw someone, they may never get into a position that will allow me to use my throwing technique. When that happens I don't need to force a throwing technique. I need to use a technique that fits the situation.

The boxer in the video didn't have an option for defending or attacking the kick, because there are not options for a kick in boxing. His opponent understood that. Count how many kicks where thrown at the boxer. Out of all the techniques that could have been thrown it only took one technique to exploit the hole in boxing.

I used to teach teens self defense class and when ever we sparred I would kick them, knowing that they didn't have an option for attacking or defending a kick. The first thing that came out of their mouths was "That's not fair" and "Most people don't kick in a fight." My reply to them was, "That's why I'm kicking you." If I spar against a boxer and try to play by his rules, then I'll lose. If I spar against a boxer and force him to deal with my rules then my chances for winning greatly increase. If you look at all of the street fights on Youtube you can see that most are about punching and not kicking. My goal is always to fight where my opponent isn't. In other words if my opponent isn't thinking about his root or protecting his legs then that's what I'm going to go for.

Boxing doesn't train for kicks or takedowns, which is fine because that's what boxing is. Punching

Boxing is fighting in a box.

 

[ChenAn]

JowGaWold what taiji method do you practice ?


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[JowGaWolf]

JowGaWold what taiji method do you practice ?


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Yang Tai Chi

 

[ChenAn]

Yang Tai Chi

Seems like you are very confident in your abilities. Other than fighting with your students have you tried any full contact competitions?


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[JowGaWolf]

Seems like you are very confident in your abilities. Other than fighting with your students have you tried any full contact competitions?


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I'm only confident in the stuff that I train to fight with and actually had a chance to use in sparring.

I've done full contact competitions before but that was a long time ago I'm 43 now. I'm hoping to get some more play time with full contact in the future once I have surgery on my finger.

By the way my fight experience is with Karate and Jow Ga.

 

[ChenAn]

I'm only confident in the stuff that I train to fight with and actually had a chance to use in sparring.

I've done full contact competitions before but that was a long time ago I'm 43 now. I'm hoping to get some more play time with full contact in the future once I have surgery on my finger.

If you have done it before it's good enough . Competing after 40 is killing your health (in my opinion)


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[Ironbear24]

The form of Tai chi the instructor teaches is Sun form. It was a lot of circular motions and slow movements. I was bored, but I did feel calm after 5 minutes of failing to move slowly . I don't get why this stuff is so hard for me, if I can move quickly and aggressively I should be able to move slowly pretty easily?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you have done it before it's good enough . Competing after 40 is killing your health (in my opinion)


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Only I get hit with too many solid punches. In the past I didn't mind as much because my body would heal quickly. Now it's a different story and I've adjusted my training to take less of an impact as possible. I already know that the longer a fight goes the worse it will be for me.

 

[Zeny]

Ironbear, being able to move fast doesn't guarantee you'll be good at moving slow. By the same token, being able to apply a lot of force doesn't mean that you'll be able to apply a small amount of force. That's taichi for you.

I've never heard of the sun form. Does it originate from any one of the big families (chen, yang, wu etc)?

 

[Zeny]

Jowgawolf, thanks for sharing your training method. It believe it is an effective way to train.

Let me share mine. I practise huang taichi, and we practise a lot of push hands, and no sparring. The push hands are done free style, with no set patterns, mostly slowly, sometimes at normal (natural) movement speed and fast speed. This is when we practise the taichi principles, such as relaxation, upright body, sticking, don't fight force with force, etc. Very little emphasis is placed on individual techniques.

The idea is that as we become more and more relaxed, our breathing and movements become 'natural'. If one day i were to get into a street fight, i am not constrained to move in a certain way, my body goes completely relaxed, everything goes (hitting / breaking the arm, palm / reverse palm strikes, elbow / knee strikes etc). I tried some light fighting with a friend who practises decent muay thai and completely dominated him, mostly because i am very heavy (rooted) from all the relaxation training and because my arms are relaxed my movements are very fast, strong and snappy. My friend also has no idea how i move as i don't have any fixed techniques.

It remains to be seen how i would fare in a ring or a real street fight, but i don't train for that. I have never been involved in a real fight my whole life and i don't foresee myself being involved in one the rest of my life. If i ever do, it will probably be a self defence or life and death situation, and at that time, everything goes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't get why this stuff is so hard for me, if I can move quickly and aggressively I should be able to move slowly pretty easily?

Moving slowly forces you to work different muscles and you are working your muscles longer than you would if you were going fast. A movement that is normally done in less than a second is now taking 3 - 5 seconds to complete and now you are paying attention to how every muscle in your body is moving and you are trying to get these muscles to work as one.

Being bored is normal. It goes away after you learn to slow your mind down and you begin to focus on your movement and your body more than focusing on completing the movement. It forces you to pay attention to things that are normally lost to your attention when doing things quickly.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ironbear, being able to move fast doesn't guarantee you'll be good at moving slow. By the same token, being able to apply a lot of force doesn't mean that you'll be able to apply a small amount of force. That's taichi for you.

I've never heard of the sun form. Does it originate from any one of the big families (chen, yang, wu etc)?

It's father art is the Wu form.