How to turn without stressing knees?

[Leam_Hall]

I'm working on natural movement in various directions, it's a skill challenge area for me. It's also a physical issue since I'm not skinny, am old, and my knees are complaining when I move sideways. I *think* it's more tendon/ligament because walking forward is fine. The first possible solution is turning the leg at the hip to put the knee in proper alignment, but maybe there are better ways? I keep thinking the Ba-gua folks must have this down to a science...

 

[skribs]

Use your hips to align the knee. Use your feet to align the hips.

 

[Gyakuto]

In Iai we tend to turn on the balls of our feet, driving the turn by torquing the pelvis. At first it was so difficult because the friction between ball of foot and a shiny wooden floor was seemingly too great to overcome. At one point I even resorted to applying talc to my feet which worked for a short time and made a mess of my black dōgi! I asked a senior teacher about it and he said, “Oh it’s just ‘weight management’, work out where to distribute your weight to which part of you foot/feet. Just keep practising and it’ll come.” That didn’t seem very helpful but he was right. In time, it just clicked and happened.

That was at the beginning of my journey but quite recently the same thing happened with moving around on the floor from a kneeling position on rubbery sports hall floors, which seem to be becoming more common. It was alway said that you take the weight off your knees by pushing down with the feet. I just couldn’t do it. Then training on a bumpy wooden floor, it just happened! It was like frictionless gliding and is now automatic requiring no thought.

Keep experimenting….it’ll come…

 

[isshinryuronin]

I've written a couple of times on my continual work on pivoting (after many decades of karate). Starting the turn with the hips will stress the hips until the rest of the leg catches up. Starting the turn with the feet will result in a weak turn (and weakness in the technique following the turn.) since the hips are the source of power.

The answer for me is to place the ball of the stepping foot in the end position and then pivot the entire body as one piece at the same time. (IMO, it should be considered as part of the technique which follows.) This gives a quicker turn as there is no time lag from hip to foot chain and a powerful turn as the entire mass of the body is being delivered into the turn.

Stepping/pivoting is often neglected, being seen as a "connector" move between techniques. But it should be considered as much a technique as punching, or any other move, worthy of practice and drilling in the aim of continual improvement in terms of speed and power.

 

[Leam_Hall]

I've written a couple of times on my continual work on pivoting (after many decades of karate). Starting the turn with the hips will stress the hips until the rest of the leg catches up. Starting the turn with the feet will result in a weak turn (and weakness in the technique following the turn.) since the hips are the source of power.

The answer for me is to place the ball of the stepping foot in the end position and then pivot the entire body as one piece at the same time. (IMO, it should be considered as part of the technique which follows.) This gives a quicker turn as there is no time lag from hip to foot chain and a powerful turn as the entire mass of the body is being delivered into the turn.

Stepping/pivoting is often neglected, being seen as a "connector" move between techniques. But it should be considered as much a technique as punching, or any other move, worthy of practice and drilling in the aim of continual improvement in terms of speed and power.

Totally agree with the movement being part of the technique!

How would you apply to shifting without turns? For example, if you're facing forward and you shift right but want to end up facing the same direction, would you lift the left heel and turn it slightly right, push off the ball of the left foot, lift and move the right foot, and then bring the left back into proper distance? Or something else?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm working on natural movement in various directions, it's a skill challenge area for me. It's also a physical issue since I'm not skinny, am old, and my knees are complaining when I move sideways. I *think* it's more tendon/ligament because walking forward is fine. The first possible solution is turning the leg at the hip to put the knee in proper alignment, but maybe there are better ways? I keep thinking the Ba-gua folks must have this down to a science...

It might be helpful if you tell us what martial system you have been training, and specifically what context and type of turning to which you are referring. Might get some on-target suggestions if we have some more info.

 

[Fungus]

I'm working on natural movement in various directions, it's a skill challenge area for me. It's also a physical issue since I'm not skinny, am old, and my knees are complaining when I move sideways. I *think* it's more tendon/ligament because walking forward is fine. The first possible solution is turning the leg at the hip to put the knee in proper alignment, but maybe there are better ways? I keep thinking the Ba-gua folks must have this down to a science...

This has several components I think, and I am not sure I fully understood the type of movement you consider, is it like turning kicks?

What I found, regardless of wether you turn on the ball or heel (I personally do both, but at different situations), or pre-place your feet by side stepping, another trick to solve the friction problem is that if you turn with a timed slight up/down motion, you can time the turn on the "up" - this reduces the normalforce and thus friction force!

It is a bit like "jumping" when turning, but not so much that you loose ground, just slightly to reduce normal force. This is not possible to do in slow motion, it has to be done fast. I think this is why it seems hard when you practice slow due to friction, but when you don't think about it and "just do it" - then you often to it faster, and if you then combine ti with a slight up is is easer. This requires thay you bend your knees and lower your stance just a little bit, so having a too upright stance this is harder.

 

[Leam_Hall]

It might be helpful if you tell us what martial system you have been training, and specifically what context and type of turning to which you are referring. Might get some on-target suggestions if we have some more info.

Ah, yes, and I apologize. I usually get wrapped up in my head and forget that no one else has wandered down this particular rabbit hole with me.

Decades ago, in TKD, when doing a side kick we'd raise the kicking leg with energy which could lighten the weight on the support leg enough to make turning the support foot 90 degrees out. That way the support foot could push even more energy into the kick without risk. Nowadays I'm trying to move to change the angles between my opponent and I.

Imagine the two of us facing each other, so that a line perpendicular to our shoulders goes directly to the other person. Our feet are in a traditional "boxer's stance", one foot in front and to the side a little. My left foot is forward. My opponent steps towards me, still facing me. I step forward and left, about 45 degrees off line, and then turn slightly to my right so that the line from my shoulders faces my opponent but my opponent's line is still facing where I was.

In my step, my right (rear) knee will have some pressure outwards, against how a knee usually works. After the step, as my weight shifts forward and turns, my left knee will also feel pressure outwards. Neither of these is good, but making an extra motion for either to reduce the stress slows down the motion and keeps me in my opponent's range.

Does that make sense?

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah, yes, and I apologize. I usually get wrapped up in my head and forget that no one else has wandered down this particular rabbit hole with me.

Decades ago, in TKD, when doing a side kick we'd raise the kicking leg with energy which could lighten the weight on the support leg enough to make turning the support foot 90 degrees out. That way the support foot could push even more energy into the kick without risk. Nowadays I'm trying to move to change the angles between my opponent and I.

Imagine the two of us facing each other, so that a line perpendicular to our shoulders goes directly to the other person. Our feet are in a traditional "boxer's stance", one foot in front and to the side a little. My left foot is forward. My opponent steps towards me, still facing me. I step forward and left, about 45 degrees off line, and then turn slightly to my right so that the line from my shoulders faces my opponent but my opponent's line is still facing where I was.

In my step, my right (rear) knee will have some pressure outwards, against how a knee usually works. After the step, as my weight shifts forward and turns, my left knee will also feel pressure outwards. Neither of these is good, but making an extra motion for either to reduce the stress slows down the motion and keeps me in my opponent's range.

Does that make sense?

I cannot claim any real experience with either TKD nor boxing. I pretty much get what you are describing, but I don’t think I can comment much.

Here is the thing: if you initiate a turn from the upper body, from the hips or waist or shoulders, then that point upwards will move first and there will be a delay, even if very brief, before the feet pivot. That delay causes a twisting pressure on the knees as the feet are dragged into place which, over time, can lead to injury. It’s the kind of thing that can take years and you don’t realize the damage is being done until suddenly one day you are in pain. It didn’t happen overnight, it was a long time in the works, although one slightly traumatic event might be what finally pushes you over the line.

If you focus on rotating the feet and initiating the turn from the feet, you can then turn both the lower leg and the upper leg together as a unit, and eliminate that rotational pressure on the knee. It is near impossible to adequately describe in words and needs to be demonstrated in Person to teach the method, but it involves pressing the feet against the ground to push and drive the rotation. But the feet cannot be left behind to be later dragged into place after the rotation has been done. Doing so will put bad pressure back on the knees, as well as the ankles. So the feet push and rotate, allowing the full leg to rotate as a unit, driving the hips and torso into the rotation. There is no twisting of the spine. It is a specific methodology to teach this and it requires systematic training to develop it. Not the kind of thing that you can just play with a bit and figure it out.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I cannot claim any real experience with either TKD nor boxing. I pretty much get what you are describing, but I don’t think I can comment much.

Here is the thing: if you initiate a turn from the upper body, from the hips or waist or shoulders, then that point upwards will move first and there will be a delay, even if very brief, before the feet pivot. That delay causes a twisting pressure on the knees as the feet are dragged into place which, over time, can lead to injury. It’s the kind of thing that can take years and you don’t realize the damage is being done until suddenly one day you are in pain. It didn’t happen overnight, it was a long time in the works, although one slightly traumatic event might be what finally pushes you over the line.

If you focus on rotating the feet and initiating the turn from the feet, you can then turn both the lower leg and the upper leg together as a unit, and eliminate that rotational pressure on the knee. It is near impossible to adequately describe in words and needs to be demonstrated in Person to teach the method, but it involves pressing the feet against the ground to push and drive the rotation. But the feet cannot be left behind to be later dragged into place after the rotation has been done. Doing so will put bad pressure back on the knees, as well as the ankles. So the feet push and rotate, allowing the full leg to rotate as a unit, driving the hips and torso into the rotation. There is no twisting of the spine. It is a specific methodology to teach this and it requires systematic training to develop it. Not the kind of thing that you can just play with a bit and figure it out.

I agree since I said this earlier. See my post #4.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree since I said this earlier. See my post #4.

What you said in post #4 is quite a bit different and at odds, actually.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Starting the turn with the hips will stress the hips until the rest of the leg catches up.

Here is the thing: if you initiate a turn from the upper body, from the hips or waist or shoulders, then that point upwards will move first and there will be a delay, even if very brief, before the feet pivot. That delay causes a twisting pressure

We agree on this point.

So the feet push and rotate, allowing the full leg to rotate as a unit, driving the hips and torso into the rotation.

We disagree somewhat on this point. You advocate having the full leg rotate as a unit, I advocate having the whole body rotate as a unit. My thinking is this: Whether rotating starting high going down, or starting low and going high, stress will occur, as well as a delay/time lag. With the whole body rotating as one unit both these negative effects are eliminated.

For many decades I did as described in your second quote, causing a whipping action from low to high. This is probably the dominant thinking across modern TMA. But after experimenting on ways to improve my turns I have come to the conclusion that the "whole body pivot" method is a crisper and more effective way to turn and deliver the technique.

It is a specific methodology to teach this and it requires systematic training to develop it. Not the kind of thing that you can just play with a bit and figure it out.

I definitely agree with this - we just have different "its."

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm working on natural movement in various directions, it's a skill challenge area for me. It's also a physical issue since I'm not skinny, am old, and my knees are complaining when I move sideways. I *think* it's more tendon/ligament because walking forward is fine. The first possible solution is turning the leg at the hip to put the knee in proper alignment, but maybe there are better ways? I keep thinking the Ba-gua folks must have this down to a science...

What type of movement are you doing? Sometimes it is as simple as moving your feet instead of keeping them planted. The answer may vary depending what action you are trying do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The answer for me is to place the ball of the stepping foot in the end position and then pivot the entire body as one piece at the same time. (IMO, it should be considered as part of the technique which follows.) This gives a quicker turn as there is no time lag from hip to foot chain and a powerful turn as the entire mass of the body is being delivered into the turn.

This works for me as well. I often refer to it as stepping into my kicks versus pivoting into my kick. Step into alignment versus pivoting into it.

For the rest I would say, train static stances horse, bow, and cat. To strengthen and condition tendons. Cat stance will help for weight distribution management for when one leg must support the majority of the weight.

 

[Flying Crane]

We disagree somewhat on this point. You advocate having the full leg rotate as a unit, I advocate having the whole body rotate as a unit. My thinking is this: Whether rotating starting high going down, or starting low and going high, stress will occur, as well as a delay/time lag. With the whole body rotating as one unit both these negative effects are eliminated.

For many decades I did as described in your second quote, causing a whipping action from low to high. This is probably the dominant thinking across modern TMA. But after experimenting on ways to improve my turns I have come to the conclusion that the "whole body pivot" method is a crisper and more effective way to turn and deliver the technique.

I actually advocate the whole body turning as a unit but I was isolating the leg in this specific description to point out that the leg needs to turn as a unit to avoid putting stress on the knee. If the upper leg moves as the hips and torso rotate while the feet stay put, the knees get some bad pressure. I see this a lot, people initiate the move from higher up, either the hips or the shoulders, so the body rotates from that point and the feet get dragged around after. If the movement initiates with the push from the feet, driving a full-torso rotation, there is no knee issue. This is not a method for whipping power. It is full-body unification.

In your earlier post you mentioned stepping the foot into position and then bringing the body through the rotation (my paraphrase). I disagree with that, even though I know it is commonly done. From our point of view, if you break contact with the ground you bleed away the power that you are getting by pushing on the ground. Even pivoting on the ball or the heel of the foot contributes to bleeding away the power. Raising a portion of the foot to pivot on a smaller portion of the foot interrupts that contact. We keep the foot flat on the ground through the entire movement. Opinions may differ but I find that the best point to pivot around is the center of the bottom of the foot. I train outdoors and I grind away the soles of my shoes. The bottoms are trashed while the tops still look new. I threw away my last pair when my toes were actually coming through and hitting the concrete.

At any rate, it was that pre-step prior to the pivot that is at odds with what I describe. As far as the power from the hips method that I see described by karateka, I am not familiar enough with it to comment, but I make the distinction that power comes from the feet and legs, and drive through the hips.

I am guessing this is mostly unhelpful to the OP without actual demonstration and guidance, but at least it is good to make him aware that specific methods do exist that might help with his knee problem.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As was explained to me, when I found myself unable to turn gracefully on the ball of my foot, I tried turning on my heel, which worked but requires a bit more balance. I have also started cheating myself into position; that is, I'll raise up my foot prior to beginning the turn, pivot my foot on the heel, and then set down and complete the turn. Done quickly, it's not obvious. Done slowly, it looks like a two-part turn and is obvious.

I've also started simply picking up my feet and moving them rather than pivoting when I need to. At 63, my knees are no longer my good friends, although they're in better shape than a lot of the rest of me.

 

[Leam_Hall]

I actually advocate the whole body turning as a unit but I was isolating the leg in this specific description to point out that the leg needs to turn as a unit to avoid putting stress on the knee. If the upper leg moves as the hips and torso rotate while the feet stay put, the knees get some bad pressure. I see this a lot, people initiate the move from higher up, either the hips or the shoulders, so the body rotates from that point and the feet get dragged around after. If the movement initiates with the push from the feet, driving a full-torso rotation, there is no knee issue. This is not a method for whipping power. It is full-body unification.

In your earlier post you mentioned stepping the foot into position and then bringing the body through the rotation (my paraphrase). I disagree with that, even though I know it is commonly done. From our point of view, if you break contact with the ground you bleed away the power that you are getting by pushing on the ground. Even pivoting on the ball or the heel of the foot contributes to bleeding away the power. Raising a portion of the foot to pivot on a smaller portion of the foot interrupts that contact. We keep the foot flat on the ground through the entire movement. Opinions may differ but I find that the best point to pivot around is the center of the bottom of the foot. I train outdoors and I grind away the soles of my shoes. The bottoms are trashed while the tops still look new. I threw away my last pair when my toes were actually coming through and hitting the concrete.

At any rate, it was that pre-step prior to the pivot that is at odds with what I describe. As far as the power from the hips method that I see described by karateka, I am not familiar enough with it to comment, but I make the distinction that power comes from the feet and legs, and drive through the hips.

I am guessing this is mostly unhelpful to the OP without actual demonstration and guidance, but at least it is good to make him aware that specific methods do exist that might help with his knee problem.

When I was doing TKD (in a much younger body), one foot slightly off the ground was perfectly find for supporting full body punches. As the moving foot went forward the same side hip went backward, allowing the core more time to twist the upper body. Since the opposite side foot was grounded there was a full connection from the ground surface to the target.

I do need to think this through, and try the different things you all are suggesting. Thank you!

 

[HighKick]

I'm working on natural movement in various directions, it's a skill challenge area for me. It's also a physical issue since I'm not skinny, am old, and my knees are complaining when I move sideways. I *think* it's more tendon/ligament because walking forward is fine. The first possible solution is turning the leg at the hip to put the knee in proper alignment, but maybe there are better ways? I keep thinking the Ba-gua folks must have this down to a science...

There are some movements you can use unload the knee when turning.

First and foremost, get you heel up on the standing leg Before turning. Do Not drag your heel. This where exercises like calf raises can really help. There are plenty others you can Google. It very well could be your tendons/ligaments are just not yet acclimated to stretching/turning in these new motions. It is definitely a process, so work on warming up specific areas of the body.

Practice the turns in isolation, not worrying about the kick yet. Learn how/where/when to put the weight on your standing leg, and how to correctly balance it. Guys who are really good at spins actually put very little of the total weight on the standing leg. Of course, standing turns would be different, but you still do not want all your weight on the standing leg. Fight gravity and get light.

If you are moving the rear leg forward and need to rotate the standing leg (for kicks or turns), rotate the standing leg/foot first. Yes, it gives away a lot of your intentions, but it reduces the stress on the standing leg knee. The same process can be used in a rear spin, just in reverse and typically, a person cannot turn their foot as much in the counter-rotation direction. Remember, heel up.

As you improve your proficiency, the initial movement of the standing foot should reduce or go away completely.