How to stop rapists...

[billc]

Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns. One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.

In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."


My question...okay...how do you do that? since the vast majority of mean don't rape already, how do you stop the bad men who are not constrained by the law? any Ideas...? I know how I answered...

 

[Steve]

I don't think we need a play by play. I may be wrong, but the idea of posting politics over there is that they stay over there.

 

[billc]

Steve, please...reread the post..it came from the political side but the question isn't political...I think you can make that distinction...right...? and considering the post came from their firearm thread, and concerned the creation of a group for women's self defense? Your latent hostility is showing...

 

[donald1]

50 ft from campus police, we're they even there? If they were there that's sad to do nothing of it


Wait are second is this a rhetorical question I get those mixed up cause the answer is usually obvious
I think they should know self defense

 

[billc]

It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape." I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop...

50 ft from campus police, we're they even there? If they were there that's sad to do nothing of it

Apparently, the campus station had been closed for four hours before she was attacked...

She is a black belt in TKD and has a concealed carry permit and a gun...but couldn't carry it because the campus was a posted "gun free zone"

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns. One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.

In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."


My question...okay...how do you do that? since the vast majority of mean don't rape already, how do you stop the bad men who are not constrained by the law? any Ideas...? I know how I answered...

Rape is a crime of opportunity. Take away the opportunity.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't think we need a play by play. I may be wrong, but the idea of posting politics over there is that they stay over there.

While he is leading us, he seems within reason.

 

[Tames D]

Well, it's obvious... They need to create " rape free zones". That should solve the problem.

 

[billc]

for the record...this was my answer...

Hmmm...interesting strategy...any thoughts on how to make the bad guys stop raping? I know of a tried and true method that comes in several different "formats," 9mm, .45, and .40...those are the most popular...it usually only takes one "session" with the violent, thug rapist and usually the problem is solved,or he is taken into long term care/custody....after a period of time recuperating in a hospital...or in the morgue...

 

[drop bear]

Aversion therapy. I mean if it is good enough to cure homosexuality then it should work for rapists.

Clockwork Orange cinematic aversion therapy ? Critical Commons

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, it's obvious... They need to create " rape free zones". That should solve the problem.

It is becoming harder and harder, with modern technology, to just make off with someone. It still goes on, but the rapists have to be smarter these days.
Sean

 

[Hanzou]

It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape." I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop...

Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art, but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.

 

[billc]

Hanzou, size and weight matter and brute,force,does,matter,when we are,talking about life or death, and even rape. Besides, the rapist,violated,the "gun free zone" and used a gun to subdue his victims...she on the other hand complied with the "gun free zone" and left her concealed,carry gun off campus...and out of the "gun free zone".

Besides, guns are an even greater equalizer than empty hand martial arts training...

 

[K-man]

Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art, but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.

Sorry but that is false thinking. I have one student in my Krav class who is barely 5ft tall. She would have bugger all chance on the ground against a bigger guy but on her feet she can put 6ft guys on their arses. The rationale is hit first and hit hard. And, for what it's worth, nothing I teach relies on strength and speed.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns. One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.

In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."


My question...okay...how do you do that? since the vast majority of mean don't rape already, how do you stop the bad men who are not constrained by the law? any Ideas...? I know how I answered...

Hmm… I get where you're coming from, and where the reply you got comes from… but none of it's as simple as either of you are making out. I'll give an attempt to look at the idea here…

It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape." I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop…

Yeah… that's part of the issue you're having, Bill… this is going to sound rather… well… wrong… but the simple thing is that not all, in fact, not many rapists are what would be classed as "bad guys" the way you tend to use the term. It's a much greyer area than that… which is where the idea of "teach men not to rape" comes into it.

Now, before anyone jumps to a deeply wrong conclusion here, I am in no way condoning, accepting, or promoting the idea that rape is normal, good, acceptable, or anything less than a deeply traumatic, mentally and physically scarring, horrendous act that is utterly reprehensible. This will need some filling out, but we'll get to that in a bit.

She is a black belt in TKD and has a concealed carry permit and a gun...but couldn't carry it because the campus was a posted "gun free zone"

Yeah… to be frank, I'm going to say "So?" to that…

for the record...this was my answer...

Hmmm...interesting strategy...any thoughts on how to make the bad guys stop raping? I know of a tried and true method that comes in several different "formats," 9mm, .45, and .40...those are the most popular...it usually only takes one "session" with the violent, thug rapist and usually the problem is solved,or he is taken into long term care/custody....after a period of time recuperating in a hospital...or in the morgue...

Honestly, Bill, that's an easy, incomplete, inaccurate, and largely naive rhetoric as an answer there. And, if I really want to be honest (and possibly a bit offensive), as a thought process, it's actually quite a close echo to the mentality of rape itself… purely concerned with personal power over others. It's fantasist, and dangerous. Bluntly, it's not a healthy mentality.

Aversion therapy. I mean if it is good enough to cure homosexuality then it should work for rapists.

Clockwork Orange cinematic aversion therapy ? Critical Commons

I don't know if you're being serious, or simply blatantly homophobic here… there isn't anything in that Clockwork Orange clip about "curing homophobia" (whatever the hell that ludicrous idea could be about… there's nothing to damn well "cure"&#8230

Can you clarify before I write you off completely?

Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art, but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.

To be frank, I'd agree that BJJ is the best (martial arts) option… but not really for many of the reasons that Hanzou says here…

My primary reason for encouraging/suggesting BJJ is that the most common way for a woman to be assaulted is for her to be grabbed... followed by having a weapon used to gain compliance… and, as far as the first aspect, BJJ is one of the best systems for dealing with such attacks/situations. Not so much against weapons, but it's a good start.

Hanzou, size and weight matter and brute,force,does,matter,when we are,talking about life or death, and even rape.

And the girl in question can just put on size and strength when being assaulted? Most women can't ever get anywhere near as "big" or "strong" as men… so this is kinda pointless thinking. Additionally, you're still looking at only one version of these situations, the "worst case" version… which isn't the reality, and doesn't actually have a lot to do with the concept of "teach men not to rape".

Besides, the rapist,violated,the "gun free zone" and used a gun to subdue his victims...she on the other hand complied with the "gun free zone" and left her concealed,carry gun off campus...and out of the "gun free zone".

(Hmm, what's happening with all these comma's?) Yeah… you're looking at entirely the wrong thing there… but I might point out that none of that (the rapist being armed) is anywhere in this thread for anyone to have that information. You mentioned that this was in a firearms thread on the other forum, but as the topic is a womens self defence group focusing on use of firearms, that didn't tell us anything about the particular assault you're using here at all.

Besides, guns are an even greater equalizer than empty hand martial arts training...

No, they're not. For one thing, a gun is not an "equaliser"… unless the other person has a gun as well. Then it'd be "equal"… but that's not the point… you don't want it to be an "equaliser", you want it to be an advantage over the other person.

Okay, to the rest of the ideas.

Let's clear something up. Rapists aren't always, or even commonly, "bad guys". By that, I mean that they are not "career criminals", inherent thugs, drug addicts, or anything of the kind. Some are, certainly… but not all, and far from most. In fact, statistics suggest that it's more likely to be a friend, a date, or someone else close to the woman. So, before we get to look too much at rape defence, we need to come to some understanding of not only how it happens, but why, and by whom.

The sad reality is that probably the majority of rapists/sexual predators would never consider themselves as such. The reason isn't that they are living in denial, so much as it's due to a failure to recognise what their actions actually are, Various statistics indicate that anywhere between 1 in 10 to 1 in 4 men, at least at one time in their life, will be guilty of sexual assault in one way or another (the stats aren't that easy to rely on, due to it not being properly recognised… personally, I'd suggest that it's actually a lot higher, to be blunt). This runs the gamut from verbal/non-physical harassment, through overly physical contact (unwanted/unsought), to violent aggressive assault itself. The reasons that these behaviours aren't recognised as a form of sexual assault are myriad… part of it is biology… part is social convention and perceived permissive societies… part is the social concept of shame and guilt… but a big part of it is that there is a sense of "normalcy" to most behaviours. Men are meant to "chase"… women are supposed to be "chased" ("chaste"? Hmm&#8230… and they're supposed to be "hard to get"… resistance is normal, it's a way of testing the quality of the man, whether he gives up quickly (fail), or he perseveres…

This then leads to a particular behaviour… a way of justifying pushing past a womans resistance… feeling, believing in many ways, that it's what she really wants. She wants him to push past her objections… and, in a number of cases, that's true… but it's hardly universal. The problem is when men are unable to identify the difference between a flirtatious resistance, a testing of character and quality, and a genuine rebuking or refusal of his advances. Some guys simply are unable to differentiate (hell, I'd say most are unable to really, consistently tell the difference), some have an internal belief that all resistance is flirtatious, and therefore won't register any difference… others go the other way, thinking that all resistance is "real"… neither approach is correct, or good for anyone involved. But this is where the idea of "teach men not to rape" comes from.

The idea is that men need to learn how to respect a genuine refusal from women. Sadly, the reality doesn't seem to be that well understood on either side… the women's side is basically that men need to be educated that rape is wrong, bad, unforgivable, and so on… that women and their decisions are to be respected and listened to, that any transgressions are on the men, and so on. Men, on the other hand, by and large are relatively lost when it comes to the subtleties of going from flirtatious to genuine resistance and refusals… the mixed signals, the difficulty of knowing if you should keep pursuing or step back, is just not that obvious to the vast majority of guys… add to that various outside factors, such as alcohol, social pressure, bad advice from others that also don't get what's really going on, and so on, all contribute to the poor understanding on mens' side.

I will be absolutely clear here, no woman is ever to blame for any form of sexual assault. However, an argument can be made for mitigating fault in some (emphasis here: some) cases on the mens' side… not that it minimised the act, or the blame associated… and, obviously, the more severe the assault, the more blame is on the man.

So, from there, we get to the initial question… how do you teach men not to rape? Sadly, it's not as simple as just telling them not to… or expecting that they'd realise that themselves. As I've said, most wouldn't classify any transgressions or assaults as actually being what they are… they would dismiss them as something like the woman not being clear… or that she was just playing the game (flirtatious resistance)… or that what they did might have pressured the girl into something she didn't want to do initially, but I'm sure she enjoyed it… or anything else. How do you teach someone not to do something they're not aware they're doing, at whatever level it's occurring? Honestly, the first step is to make them aware. And, for that, we need the help of women. We need help to learn to differentiate between "flirtatious resistance" and genuine refusal. We need help to learn to identify how the behaviour is being received. And we need men to realise that their actions are not what they necessarily think they are… and to be willing to accept that things aren't as we think they are… as well as have the courage to face it and move past it.

The problem is that this is largely unrealistic. That's the simple reality. So we get hashtag movements, which have the purported aim of raising awareness… but honestly, don't do much even in that regard. They're a purely conscious mind action… and what needs to happen is an unconscious re-wiring… a new way of interacting socially… a greater empathy between both sides. To begin with.

 

[drop bear]

Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art, but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.

And proven on the battlefield.

Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai | Bjj Eastern Europe

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, size and weight matter and brute,force,does,matter,when we are,talking about life or death, and even rape.

Where did I say none of that matters? Of course all of that matters, which is why women taking a grappling art is so important. They force women to fight against larger and stronger men constantly. The women at my Bjj school constantly roll with men a lot bigger than themselves, and both parties go full speed and full power the entire time. You simply cannot do that in the striking arts due to the risk of injury.

Besides, the rapist,violated,the "gun free zone" and used a gun to subdue his victims...she on the other hand complied with the "gun free zone" and left her concealed,carry gun off campus...and out of the "gun free zone".

Besides, guns are an even greater equalizer than empty hand martial arts training...

So what exactly is the purpose behind this thread? You're asking us in a martial arts forum what a unarmed woman should do against a rapist with a gun? Well the choice is clear: She can either fight back or get raped. If she chooses to fight back, then my post above is still relevant.

 

[drop bear]

Wall of text..........


I don't know if you're being serious, or simply blatantly homophobic here… there isn't anything in that Clockwork Orange clip about "curing homophobia" (whatever the hell that ludicrous idea could be about… there's nothing to damn well "cure"&#8230

Can you clarify before I write you off completely?

It was a joke.

The premis was that it is not possible to cure homosexuality with aversion therapy as evidenced by examples of bob brown and exodious folding and apologising. And the same idea strung on to clockwork orange where the aversion therapy did not work either.

(I was also going to go with the equally effective pray the gay away)

It would be a ridiculous concept to cure men of rape. Especially as a preventative which is how it would have to be used effectively.

I have no issues with gays that just means there are more girls for me.

I assume people got it but for those who didn't there it is.

Boom boom tish.

You are such a weird guy.

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry but that is false thinking. I have one student in my Krav class who is barely 5ft tall. She would have bugger all chance on the ground against a bigger guy but on her feet she can put 6ft guys on their arses. The rationale is hit first and hit hard. And, for what it's worth, nothing I teach relies on strength and speed.

Sorry, but your wunderkind isn't the norm. The norm is that someone 4'11 is at a serious height, weight, and strength disadvantage against someone who is 6', and hitting hard and hitting first is more than likely not going to end that confrontation.

I'm also disturbed by you saying that your student would have no chance on the ground against someone bigger than her. THAT is false thinking, and pretty dangerous. Regardless of her chances, she should know ground fighting in case the fight ends up there. Given that she's so small, there's a very good chance that it will.

Btw, if she's so proficient at knocking down guys so much larger than her, tell her to become a professional fighter. She should have no problem knocking out the top women fighters in the world. You both will become millionaires.

 

[drop bear]

OK size and weight and gun-fighting and anti rape.

If you have to fight to get the gun out and into position. Say if you were ambushed. Size and weight will be a determining factor.

So a gun does not necessarily negate size and weight.