How to find a good school?

[Leam_Hall]

I get how that sounds. What I mean is that I'm invested in the style because I have put a lot of time (including a ton of supplemental learning outside of the school) and money to get to where I am at. So at this point I want to continue in American Kenpo and will pursue other systems later on.

As students get closer to their first black belt they have seen enough of their path to realize it isn't perfect. Not just the school, but everything around it. There are often politics, students passing tests without skills, good students not given sufficient challenge, etc. This isn't limited to commercial schools, every instructor is human. We all have strengths and weaknesses and if we run a school of any size those weaknesses tend to be magnified unless we pursue them diligently.

You've invested a lot of time, energy, and money to get where you are, and you're seeing challenges in your school. This is normal. Looking for another school is also normal, but I would encourage you to be abnormal. Accept that all martial arts skills (and schools) are dependent upon, and must conform to, the individual. Each of us has capabilities and challenges. Each of us has goals and limitations. Many of us have trod the very same path you are on right now, even though we study completely different arts.

If I were to advise those like my younger self all those years ago, here's what I would tell us.

1. Read Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence", and then meditate on it. Maybe even take a weekend mini-retreat and really think about why you are training as you are. What is real, what is important to you? What goals, capabilities, challenges, and limitations do you have. Rory's book challenged everything I thought I knew about martial arts and helped me find a much stronger path.

2. Set up someplace outside of school to train. My garage is my space, and I will be adding gear as I can afford it. Find those students who, like you, are looking for more. Invite them over to train with you at no charge. You're not setting up your own school, just practicing with friends. Encourage them to question everything you and they think. Have them read Rory's book, and then work through the next series of questions.

3. Stay where you are and respectfully show your ignorance. If one instructor tells you something different than another, ask for time with the two of them and seek understanding. Be on a quest to learn more from your seniors. There is a saying, "We never learn so much as when we teach." By asking the two instructors to help you understand, you will be helping them. They may not realize they have a different thought on the technique, and your connecting them can make them better instructors.

4. When you get your black belt certificate, respectfully say "Thank you". At that moment you hold in your hands a license to really learn.

 

[HighKick]

Thanks for this advice. My nature is to internalize my journey and reach for my personal expectations. I know I am proficient in my material thus far and will continue to be a very good martial artist. Starting later in life, I bring with me a ton of leadership experience and am driven to inspire others. Despite my frustrations with the school (there are others beyond what I've shared), I never let that impact being a leader on the mat. Ultimately my impact will be limited by the culture at that school. I will also admit that while I am confident in my skills, I'm sure my BB certificate won't be worth the paper it is printed on. It's the nature of this school and it's reputation. I am also sure when I get there, rank won't mean as much, but I'm not there yet. And I still struggle thinking about the people wearing rank who will probably get themselves hurt thinking they know karate, but can't at all defend themselves.

I encourage everyone who trains and is remotely worried about rank/reputation of their school to make certain it is part of a recognized system, and not just going to 'Bob's' TKD school. By being part of a system, there should be more of a check and balance system. This is especially important if you travel a lot or plan to move in the future.

As for the certificate not being worth the paper written on, can you expand on this thought?

Worrying about other people's perception of their rank, this is a very good point where internalizing will help.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I encourage everyone who trains and is remotely worried about rank/reputation of their school to make certain it is part of a recognized system, and not just going to 'Bob's' TKD school. By being part of a system, there should be more of a check and balance system. This is especially important if you travel a lot or plan to move in the future.

As for the certificate not being worth the paper written on, can you expand on this thought?

If the certificate is from "Bob," and you move out of town... no one knows who "Bob" is. That certificate isn't doing much for you.

 

[HighKick]

If the certificate is from "Bob," and you move out of town... no one knows who "Bob" is. That certificate isn't doing much for you.

If you can back it up on the floor, it is worth every ounce of time, and every penny you put into it.

Conversely, having a certificate from a recognized organization alone does Not make a person a good martial artist.

If you have a certificate from a recognized organization and you are great at your art, I doubt you are going to be too worried about the piece of paper.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If you can back it up on the floor, it is worth every ounce of time, and every penny you put into it.

Conversely, having a certificate from a recognized organization alone does Not make a person a good martial artist.

What makes one a "good" martial artist is subjective. Having a certificate from an organization is not.

This reminds me of the debates I've had about for-profit versus non-profit and public universities. Many people who've received degrees from both will argue that the education from for-profit schools is just as good as the education from public universities and private non-profit universities. And that may be true (I wouldn't know - none of my degrees are from for-profit schools). And as true as that may be, your resume is going straight to the trash if Phoenix or DeVry is on it. At that point, the "just as good" quality of education from for-profit universities doesn't matter.

If you have a certificate from a recognized organization and you are great at your art, I doubt you are going to be too worried about the piece of paper.

Oh, trust me. I'm thankful for mine. I don't take it for granted at all.

 

[HighKick]

This reminds me of the debates I've had about for-profit versus non-profit and public universities. Many people who've received degrees from both will argue that the education from for-profit schools is just as good as the education from public universities and private non-profit universities. And that may be true (I wouldn't know - none of my degrees are from for-profit schools). And as true as that may be, your resume is going straight to the trash if Phoenix or DeVry is on it. At that point, the "just as good" quality of education from for-profit universities doesn't matter.

I can personally attest, that an accredited state university accepted my transcripts from the school I completed my two Master degrees from (late 90's/early 2,000's), even though it is now defunct and no longer exist. It took a Lot of discussion, and a few extra external requisites (experiential credits) to be accepted into their PhD program, but it was done.

As far as Phoenix or DeVry, it is really no different from what I said about being a very good martial artist from an unknown school. If you put the work in better than everyone else, it doesn't really matter what the name is on the top of the certificate.
I will give you an example. Far and away, the two best pure programmers that have ever worked for me only had a 2-year degree, but he was the most self-taught person I have ever seen. The second conversely is Summa cum laude from the University of Texas. The first had a ton of common sense and could manage projects very well. The second literally has trouble raising garage doors.

 

[drop bear]

I get how that sounds. What I mean is that I'm invested in the style because I have put a lot of time (including a ton of supplemental learning outside of the school) and money to get to where I am at. So at this point I want to continue in American Kenpo and will pursue other systems later on.

Up to you. Its your life. But the longer you invest in something that is not making you good. The longer it will take to get good.

 

[Bonhomme]

As students get closer to their first black belt they have seen enough of their path to realize it isn't perfect. Not just the school, but everything around it. There are often politics, students passing tests without skills, good students not given sufficient challenge, etc. This isn't limited to commercial schools, every instructor is human. We all have strengths and weaknesses and if we run a school of any size those weaknesses tend to be magnified unless we pursue them diligently.

You've invested a lot of time, energy, and money to get where you are, and you're seeing challenges in your school. This is normal. Looking for another school is also normal, but I would encourage you to be abnormal. Accept that all martial arts skills (and schools) are dependent upon, and must conform to, the individual. Each of us has capabilities and challenges. Each of us has goals and limitations. Many of us have trod the very same path you are on right now, even though we study completely different arts.

If I were to advise those like my younger self all those years ago, here's what I would tell us.

1. Read Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence", and then meditate on it. Maybe even take a weekend mini-retreat and really think about why you are training as you are. What is real, what is important to you? What goals, capabilities, challenges, and limitations do you have. Rory's book challenged everything I thought I knew about martial arts and helped me find a much stronger path.

2. Set up someplace outside of school to train. My garage is my space, and I will be adding gear as I can afford it. Find those students who, like you, are looking for more. Invite them over to train with you at no charge. You're not setting up your own school, just practicing with friends. Encourage them to question everything you and they think. Have them read Rory's book, and then work through the next series of questions.

3. Stay where you are and respectfully show your ignorance. If one instructor tells you something different than another, ask for time with the two of them and seek understanding. Be on a quest to learn more from your seniors. There is a saying, "We never learn so much as when we teach." By asking the two instructors to help you understand, you will be helping them. They may not realize they have a different thought on the technique, and your connecting them can make them better instructors.

4. When you get your black belt certificate, respectfully say "Thank you". At that moment you hold in your hands a license to really learn.

Thanks for this well thought out advice. I've got Meditations on Violence and will move it to the top of my 'to read' list.

 

[Bonhomme]

I encourage everyone who trains and is remotely worried about rank/reputation of their school to make certain it is part of a recognized system, and not just going to 'Bob's' TKD school. By being part of a system, there should be more of a check and balance system. This is especially important if you travel a lot or plan to move in the future.

As for the certificate not being worth the paper written on, can you expand on this thought?

Worrying about other people's perception of their rank, this is a very good point where internalizing will help.

I would love to train in a school that is in an organization, especially when I see seminars and people sharing ideas - and a shared standard for curriculum. I get the impression that my school has burned bridges in the past so it is not part of an organization and students are not allowed to participate in anything (seminar, camp, etc) outside of the school.

What I mean on the BB certificate is that at this school many of the BBs are not proficient - it is widely known, meaning that it is not respected. I'm not that concerned with the paper, since I believe that ability and proficiency in the art is much more important than a defined rank.

 

[Leam_Hall]

I would love to train in a school that is in an organization, especially when I see seminars and people sharing ideas - and a shared standard for curriculum. I get the impression that my school has burned bridges in the past so it is not part of an organization and students are not allowed to participate in anything (seminar, camp, etc) outside of the school.

What I mean on the BB certificate is that at this school many of the BBs are not proficient - it is widely known, meaning that it is not respected. I'm not that concerned with the paper, since I believe that ability and proficiency in the art is much more important than a defined rank.

Rory Miller's book will have a great impact on your thought processes, enjoy the read and plan your path. @drop bear 's comment referring to "sunk cost" is relevant to this; but don't make a decision until after you've read some.

My guess is that you really don't want to start over doing white belt stuff, and the folks responding probably get that. Do you feel you've earned the belt you have now? You've been putting in a lot of extra work, do you feel you could go to another school and represent yourself well? Which do you feel is more responsible for your growth, your class time or your self-directed extra effort? Can you perform "up" a belt or two? Can you perform at a black belt level now?

Next time one of those seminars is doable for you, go. Meet people, learn, and come back with a wealth of information. If there's a tournament, go compete at your official belt rank. Not everyone will be a great "karate brother" (or sister), but maybe one or two will. Meet their instructors, beg for critique. Not "how do I find a better school?", but "How do I better my technical skills?" Good instructors don't want students who bad-mouth other schools, they want people driven to learn.

 

[Balrog]

So what do I look for or questions should I ask to find a school where I get my money's worth? Or is that so old school that they don't exist anymore?

Research on the internet and read reviews of the school. When you find one that interests you, set up an intro lesson with them. Get a feel for the teaching style. Watch some classes, talk to some of the students and get feedback from them

Most schools will offer an intro program for a nominal price, such as 4 weeks for $49. If the school you are visiting has such an offer, take advantage of it. 4 weeks exposure is a much better chance for you to make an informed decision than a one time intro lesson.

Good luck in your training!