Michael Loughrie12343
White Belt
Bryan Hawkins is NOT a 10th Degree Black Belt. He is my teacher and he is an 8th Degree Black Belt. He was promoted to 8th Degree Black Belt in 2010 or 2011.
I appreciate the information. Is there something wrong with bringing back an old thread?
KenpoMaster805
2nd Black Belt
MY Sifu Jesus Flores Was a 10 degree in American Kenpo karate
Not at all, but rest assured, people will call you on it, anyway.
So many 10th degree black belts. Does it mean anything? I know there are many self proclaimed grandmasters in Wing Chun. In other words grandmasters no longer have meaning. Ed Parker I agree was founder and the one that put it all together. So what degree have they given him? 20th?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Grandmaster never had any real meaning on mainland China. That is a title made up by and used for the west
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Wow, this thread was popular over 20 years ago. Seeing this new post spurred me to go back and review the old ones.
When I was involved with Mr. Parker in about 1973 the most senior guy in rank, I think, was Dave Hebler. I remember him being 7th degree, but I may be wrong. Huck Planas was at a lower rank but held in high esteem by the other kenpo big boys.
IMO, the over-abundance of 10 degrees (a malady infecting a number of styles) is sad on several levels. In my early years, each style had just one 10th degree. That made sense to me.
The 60's/70's were a wild time (in growth and personalities) in karate and Ed Parker was a tough guy who attracted other tough guys. There was a lot of testosterone and ego from the top, down. Even though Parker had a strong organization and a handful of loyal students, many broke off from him to do their own thing.
When I was involved with Mr. Parker in about 1973 the most senior guy in rank, I think, was Dave Hebler. I remember him being 7th degree, but I may be wrong. Huck Planas was at a lower rank but held in high esteem by the other kenpo big boys.
IMO, the over-abundance of 10 degrees (a malady infecting a number of styles) is sad on several levels. In my early years, each style had just one 10th degree. That made sense to me.
This was an old quote and brought back a memory. It was kenpo tradition to receive a punch, or if more advanced, a kick to the abs from the school's head instructor upon being promoted. Parker explained to me that a woman goes thru pain when she gives birth, giving it more meaning. Likewise, when promoted, one is giving birth to a new MA rank. The kick given to black belts was substantial and meant to hurt.
This brought a big smile to my face. I’m friends with a lot of Kenpo guys. Most of them were from Ed Parker’s lineage.
I encouraged my students to train in other arts. Some chose Kenpo.
Some of my Kenpo friends had really big organizations. When they were promotions coming up they’d all meet up in the dojo with the most space.
This photo was from one of those promotions. And I got to kick two of my black belts in the abs. I faked a front kick and went into a jump back. And I was wearing sneakers.
It was fine, they had seen it before.
That day I was with Sheldon, a member of Martial Talk who has since passed away. His screen name was tshadowchaser. We had a whole lot of fun.
Attachments
Honestly, I wonder if that idea - a singular 10th degree black belt as "head" of a style is a large part of what has lead to the proliferation of 10th degrees.
One the one hand, you have the people who want to be the big boss in charge, so they create their own art or their own splinter organization of an existing art that they can be the boss of, then promote themselves to 10th dan. (Or have the rank awarded to them by their students or a group of "peers", i.e. a pay-to-play Council of Grandmasters.)
On the other hand, you have people who don't necessarily care so much about the rank, but they break away to form their own organization or style for other reasons. Perhaps it's a personality or political dispute with the folks in charge of their original organization. Perhaps, based on their experience, they want to teach different material or the same material in a different way from what is mandated in their original organization. So they go their own way, change the name of the style slightly to distinguish it from what they were doing previously. And then they uncritically buy into the idea that the head of a style must be a 10th dan, they are now head of their own style, and so now they must be a 10th dan.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the idea that a martial art has to have a single authority in charge (either a "Grandmaster" or a committee). I'm also not a fan of the idea that a martial art needs to have an officially mandated curriculum which would require an instructor to break away and form their own style when their experience leads them to modify that curriculum. But that's just me. To each their own.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
There is a lot of truth to the various reasons you give for the proliferation of 10th dans. The conditions for this to happen arose thru TMA's evolution the past century. Then, there were no styles or ranks. There were also just a handful or two of karate experts. It was a small elite group who knew each other rather well and often trained together. One's place as a master was given by one's peers whose own place was unquestioned. Each one's skill, reputation and honor were known amongst them.
Many eventually developed their own styles (that's another story) but often refrained from opening up their own school out of respect until their master passed away. This was still a time where a master-disciple relationship existed, more intimate than simply teacher-student. Strong loyalty and respect were forged. There were no governing organizations as we now know them in Okinawa. Even some years later, none would have the audacity to claim a high rank by self-proclamation.
After WWII everything changed. Commercialism, egos, participants, organizations, and export to the West all grew. Accountability and loyalty shrunk. Starting in the mid 60's, I got to see the tail end of the pre-war karate masters whose influence still lingered. Only isolated remnants still remain.
IMO, there is a difference between "organization" and "style." The head of an organization automatically becomes a 10th dan? That is too easy a route. Anyone can do that. To inherit a style as the son of the master is another way to go, but without strict loyalty challengers to the position may arise.
But to be accepted by a group of unimpeachable very senior practitioners as a fellow "master" as someone who has a profound understanding of the art and has somehow developed a new approach or methodology deserving to be a 10th dan of his own style, is something that should be very rare. Unfortunately, that horse has left the barn and ran away with no way to get it back.
There are a couple of 9th dans who refuse to claim 10th out of respect to their teacher or out of their own modesty. They carry on true TMA values. In light of all the "pretenders" out there, I will leave it to myself to judge who to recognize as a "master" worthy of a 9th or 10th dan red belt.
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