How Important is Rank to You??

[pgsmith]

Would I ever accept a promotion from anyone again? I came to the conclusion that I would not. The reason being is that it is not the paper but your knowledge and in some way i would feel I am betraying him.

I think that if this is the way you feel, and the way that the art you are practicing believes, then that is fine for you. In the arts that I practice, rank is not so much an indicator of ability, as it is an indicator of responsibility. In the traditional Japanese arts, if you work hard for many years and take the appropriate steps, you will gain the appropriate ranks, and will be expected to assume the appropriate responsibilities. I know many that have not advanced in rank. They are highly skilled but, for various reasons, were not able to assume the added responsibilities of higher rank. Therefore, they did not attempt to gain higher rank.

Every art, and every branch of said arts, is different in their approach and outlook. It is pretty much impossible to think that a single way of thinking can apply across all the arts. Of course, that's what makes it a good topic of conversation in my opinion!

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

In the MAs I grew up a Taekwondo practitioner in the TKD world. I admit, yeah, I was a rank chaser when I was in the color belt ranks. I hated being a lowly 9th gup white belt. Since I reached the black belt ranks, it's not that important anymore. I'll keep training for as long as I'm able, and if the powers that be allow me to advance further up the dan ranks so much the better. In any event, I'll keep training from now on because I enjoy this stuff so much.

 

[Kacey]

Rank is important as an indicator of knowledge - it allows others to have some idea of what a particular person knows. Higher rank indicates that someone has stayed active in their MA long enough to gain greater knowledge and experience. For color belts, rank is important as a motivator; for black belts, that should not, IMHO, still be the case.

I was at a seminar with GM Walter Lang, the senior member of our association, yesterday, and someone asked him if becoming a IX Dan had been a goal; his answer was that, while he felt he had earned it, after 40+ years of active training and instructing, it was not a rank he had ever aspired to. On the contrary, he discussed the sense of concern any conscientious practitioner feels when s/he achieve a higher rank, and the responsibility that comes with such rank - to other practitioners, who have expectations of a certain level of ability and knowledge from a particular rank, and to non-practitioners, who often judge the validity of an art by the competence of its senior members.

Everything he said on this subject resonated within me, and I realized why I had been so nervous when accepting my IV Dan - in Ch'ang H'on TKD, IV-VI Dan is "expert" rank, and being considered an expert - even after 18 years - was somewhat concerning.

I realize this is somewhat rambling; I'm still working through the implications and ramifications of some of what GM Lang said, and the effect it had on me.

 

[terryl965]

Rank is as important as everything one want to put into it for some it is the end all, for other like me it means I'm one step closer to perfection which in itself is a never ending journey. So to answer your question it means that I have study and know a little about something and need to learn alot nmore of everything else.

 

[megat]

some MA like tkd and karate , u can only train certain kata or form in certain rank right, so in that sense it is important. but MA is about personal growth so if u think u are satisfied dun care about rank man.

 

[terryl965]

some MA like tkd and karate , u can only train certain kata or form in certain rank right, so in that sense it is important. but MA is about personal growth so if u think u are satisfied dun care about rank man.

Dear Sir if you are referring to me and TKD I train in seven different set of Poomsae or Kata plus I train in another4 set from Karate, training poomsae or kata is only a small aspect of one journey, so like any type of ma we have a core but that does not mean you cannot cross train in other styles.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I guess that rank lets a person know that the instructor feels that they are learning and a person can judge how much they have learned in comparison to the rest of the class/school/system by their rank. Outside of the mentioned school, etc. it is only an indication of what might be know by the person.
I have studied a few arts in my day and have accepted some ranking a few systems. I did so because I felt I had put in the time, effort, sweat, and some times blood to wear those ranks within those systems. I have also been gifted/awarded rank within the organization I was in for 30+ years by my instructor because of my knowledge and willingness to pass on that knowledge.



Most of the time if asked my rank I will answere student

 

[qi-tah]

I was at a seminar with GM Walter Lang, the senior member of our association, yesterday, and someone asked him if becoming a IX Dan had been a goal; his answer was that, while he felt he had earned it, after 40+ years of active training and instructing, it was not a rank he had ever aspired to. On the contrary, he discussed the sense of concern any conscientious practitioner feels when s/he achieve a higher rank, and the responsibility that comes with such rank - to other practitioners, who have expectations of a certain level of ability and knowledge from a particular rank, and to non-practitioners, who often judge the validity of an art by the competence of its senior members.

Everything he said on this subject resonated within me, and I realized why I had been so nervous when accepting my IV Dan - in Ch'ang H'on TKD, IV-VI Dan is "expert" rank, and being considered an expert - even after 18 years - was somewhat concerning.

This really resonates with me also... the ranks our school has are few (only 4 different grading levels) and the meaning of those ranks fairly ambiguous, so what passing a grading means to me exists mainly in my own goals for my progress. If i can't clearly articulate those goals for that level, then i personally don't feel ready to grade, no matter what anyone else thinks. I've heard other ppl say that you should trust yr teacher as to when you should grade, but i wouldn't if i didn't feel ready in myself to take that step.

But in the end, grading is just one day (for our school, anyway!) in a lifetime of learning. There must come a time for all of us when we abandon our markers and set sail on the wide, featureless sea... i guess that's the art in all MA's. :asian:

 

[chinto01]

I have seen in a few posts where rank is supposed to be an indication of the students knowledge. What was done in the old days when belts were not worn? What about some of these high ranking "masters" who only know a fraction of what their students who have left them now know?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[kidswarrior]

Rank as a concept is utterly unimportant. Especially when you get up in the middle to high black ranks...it's not even a reliable indicator of skill anymore.

Very true. Have seen this firsthand.

As a method for setting and achieving goals, though, it's tops. Any system that includes well defined, subdivided goals is ultimately a good system -- it's part of why martial arts builds confidence and power.

Yes, so a great teaching tool--kinda like grades in school. Wouldn't give a first grader 12th grade material, etc. But someone who's built knowledge and confidence at each grade level will be ready for the next level (theoretically, anyway ).

I still look to my next rank when setting life goals. It's a way of staying on track.

Yes, a great self-motivator and measuring rod as well. Only has meaning for the individual, which I like.

 

[IcemanSK]

A good friend of mine is a 7th Dan & has trained in his art for more than 40 years. He runs class with a degree of decorum, but is not the most strick instructor I've met by any means. He is fond of saying, "we have rank in class so that we can get things done." While I'm not sure I agree completely, it certainly rings true in many respects.

Few MA programs are groups of folks sharing ideas with everyone being equal at every moment.

These are my thoughts on it for now. I'll add more later.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

When your sensei passes I would imagine he would want you to continue your training and furthering your education. I would think that who ever is his successor would be the one to promote you in the future. In that case I would not turn it down if offered.

 

[NanFeiShen]

I think rank is quite important from a junior level perspective, (up to about 5 years), it gives the newer students a sense of achievement and a goal to strive towards.
At senior levels, i dont really think it is that important, as your fellow students/instructors know you well enough, and know your level of expertise.
The school i belonged to, we had grading up to junior instructor level (+ - 10 years) after that for me to attain the title of Sifu, was 10 years of teaching experience. My collegues and peers know my rank, so do my teachers and students.
Every now and again when i wear my sash, my students say:
"hey Sifu ,Why the sash?"
my reply:
"It keeps my pants up, and my belly in"

 

[kidswarrior]

I think rank is quite important from a junior level perspective, (up to about 5 years), it gives the newer students a sense of achievement and a goal to strive towards.
At senior levels, i dont really think it is that important....

I agree. The only thing I would add is that for those of us who teach those in the first five years or so, wearing a belt/sash that clearly shows our rank promotes another level of goal-setting for the students. In other words, their next belts and those of their classmates are immediate to mid-range goals; my belt gives them a picture of a longer-range goal, and the fact that they know someone who has achieved it. My belt illustrates something to keep the dream alive when the guy they work out with every day, who is within a couple of levels of them, loses his charm--and maybe his belt loses its shine in the process .

 

[americanarnisador]

HI all,
This is my first response to a post. Good question!
The only place you wear your belt is in the dojo and it helps to give order.
That is the place that piece of cloth means something.
Your own personal ability and responsibility you carry and display always.
Until just this last weekend 1998 was the last time I tested. Degrees were
unimportant to me because the MA were a personal path to discovery for me.
Now I am opening my own school and hope to guide others down their own path of discovery. It used to be BB was enough now it seems what degree are you. Remember the degree MAYhelp you get students in but your ability to teach them will keep or drive them away.
(Rich P nice to have worked with you this weekend)
George Harris

 

[Drac]

Remember the degree MAYhelp you get students in but your ability to teach them will keep or drive them away.

Well said...

 

[Rich Parsons]

HI all,
This is my first response to a post. Good question!
The only place you wear your belt is in the dojo and it helps to give order.
That is the place that piece of cloth means something.
Your own personal ability and responsibility you carry and display always.
Until just this last weekend 1998 was the last time I tested. Degrees were
unimportant to me because the MA were a personal path to discovery for me.
Now I am opening my own school and hope to guide others down their own path of discovery. It used to be BB was enough now it seems what degree are you. Remember the degree MAYhelp you get students in but your ability to teach them will keep or drive them away.
(Rich P nice to have worked with you this weekend)
George Harris

George,

It was good to work with you as well. Enjoy and hopefully we will have teh pleasure in the future.

Thanks

 

[Eternal White Belt]

I was talking about this with a fellow eclectic martial artist the other day. Neither one of us has a high rank in any formal style, although we both have trained in several styles to varying degrees, as well as on our own and with small groups of others interested in martial training. I think his highest formal rank is as an orange belt in TKD, although he has trained in martial arts for over 30 years. My highest formal rank is as a blue belt in kenpo karate, although I have trained in martial arts for 24 years.
As such, I have been to many schools and seen many black belts who were completely incompetent, as well as lower ranking students who were more competent than the instructors. My experience and observations lead me to the conclusion that it is competence that matters. Not rank.
A colored strip of cloth is no gage of competence, nor is a certificate with a gold foil stamp in the corner. If you demonstrate competence, people will train with you. Regardless of "rank".

 

[Shaderon]

To me my belt/rank matters only to myself and to my instructor. To myself as it's a milestone for me in my learning, it reminds me what I should know to and have been taught to get there, and it gives me my next level of learning. To my instructor as a visual reminder of what he's teaching me and what I should already know. To everyone else it matters little, except where we line up at the beginning and end of class and for sparring it gives a little indication of probable ability in your opponant.

Like Kidswarrior said though, my instructors rank is important to me so I know someone who's acheived that high goal, I can measure his ability against mine and know what I have to acheive to get that far.

I have been in a situation where we had no colour belt ranks, and it was a real mix up for me, I didn't like it at all, I had no mini goals and didn't know if the material I was doing at the time was things I was supposed to already know or if it was above my current abilities. I guess it's belt ranks for me, I just prefer those visible stages of growth.