How important is physical strength?

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I don't mean any disrespect to either of you, not at all. It is just that a "newby" seeing a statement like "learn a ground game" well may go out and try to, ending up hurting themselves prior to establishing or exploring their own system.

Your point of view is understood sir! :asian: Great post.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I am not unaware of any of the points made by either of you.

etc. [deleted for brevity]

Well said, sir. And I think we're on the same page

Mike

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Strength obviously helps, but explosive power and speed are more condusive to kenpo practioners. i.e.: If I can hit you three times with half the strength you have in the time it would take you to hit me once, who's more effective?

Plus, where and what type of strike should also be considered...:asian:

 

[Kenpo_Norm]

I was originally taught that strength was not important. However experience has taught me otherwise. All things being equal, the stronger person has the advantage. Note, I stated all things being equal. There are probably an infinite number of variables that could be argued.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Being thin and a light weight (under 60 kg for 1,73 cm), accuracy is more important for me.
Don't get me wrong though, I would train also for increasing strenght in many ways, if doing kenpo through proper body alignment and mechanics and speed, and outside kenpo mainly with dumbbells and physical conditioning (push ups, running uphill and the likes).

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Rest, while you still can!

No rest for the weary! I keep going, whether on the mat or in the weight room.

 

[Klondike93]

What did your training partner do to pull your ribs apart?

At one time I was studying BJJ with a buddy of mine, but since I'm doing Systema (and kenpo) that's the only ground work I do now. Went to a Martin Wheeler seminar this past weekend and he showed some ground work that was sooooo cool and soooo simple it was amazing and fun. But, Systema doesn't teach ground work for sport so it's a more dealing with getting away from grappling and wrestling with the attacker and being able to get away.

As for strength training, you should do some kind of it be it push ups weights or machines just to help prevent injuries to yourself.




Klondike (aka Chuck)

 

[jfarnsworth]

A throw that went wrong. The partner was probably a little too big. He didn't roll properly off of my shoulders. Maybe he should have had a little more experience, maybe I should have picked a smaller partner. He landed on the back of my rib cage from behind and pinned my right shoulder to the mat then fell on the back of my right side. Since I couldn't move anywhere the first 4 ribs seperated from my sternum. They didn't draw back into the sternum. So now I get to hit the weights to strength the muscle strands around them. This hasn't really slowed down my sparring that I've noticed but you can never tell for sure.

 

[Klondike93]

Sounds painful though I once had the cartlidge in the ribs on my left side seperated from a side kick. Didn't hurt too bad at the time, but later it felt like I was having a heart attack. It hurt real bad to breathe.





Klondike (aka Chuck)

 

[Kalicombat]

Ive read this thread since it started and just now decided to add my two cents. First, physical strength in anything is more advantageous then weakness. A person does not have to be strong to be effective, but being strong will only increase ones effectiveness. I know some seriously strong individuals, national ranked powerlifters, that can not fight to save their life. However, I know some of them that are incredibly dangerous individuals.

In any sport, be it baseball, football, tennis, etc...., strength enhances performance. This includes martial arts. ALot of people that shy away from weights may say and do say otherwise. THe properties of physics are not disputable. For example, lets just say that a person that does not lift weights, and only does karate and conditioning generates a hypothetical amount of 150 lbs per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle. Then the same hypothetical person lifts weights and increases his or her strength, all the while maintaining the same level of conditioning and skill level with their martial arts, only now they generate 250 pounds per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle, wont that persons back knuckle strike be more effective??? Of course it will.

I have heard opponents of weight training in regards to martial arts say that they dont lift weights because they dont want to get "too big" because it will slow them down. First, lifting weights will not slow anyone down, and second, for a beginner to start lifting weights, there is no fear that they will suddenly bulk up to mammoth proportions. I have lifted weights since I was 10 years old, and believe me, it takes alot of incredibly hard work and dedication to look like the freaks in the muscle magazines. Not too mention all of the top bodybuilders in the magazines are so juiced up on steroids that their muscularity is not even possible without the drugs.

Like I said, lifting weights is not necessary to be effective, but why not hedge your bets and give yourself every possible advantage in case the moment of truth happens?

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist....and powerlfiter.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Gary Catherman, Kenpoist....and powerlfiter.

I agree with your post very much so. I don't have any knock out power or anything however I know I can hit harder after getting back to lifting weights for two years than I did before. As everything else it's just another tool to aid in your goal as becoming a better martial artist.:asian:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Like I said, lifting weights is not necessary to be effective, but why not hedge your bets and give yourself every possible advantage in case the moment of truth happens?

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist....and powerlfiter.

Excellent post, and I couldn't agree more.

I, however, don't lift weights. My personal reason is, simply, that it's boring for me. I have no interest in doing it. But, I'm also pretty muscular by nature. I'm sure that weight training would make me more muscular and would help my martial arts some. But, for the past and present, anyway, I have no interest in lifting. That may change in the future. I don't know.

Currently, the only exercises I do aside from my regular training are an ab workout and pushups for pecs. And that's a pretty recent thing. I've been losing weight (intentionally - check http://www.guild-hall.com/diet_pics to see why). And am, generally, more aware of my fitness these days. I've had minor troubles with my lower back for several years. I know that the majority of lower back trouble comes from abs being in poor shape. So that's why I started working my abs. I started working my pecs because I figure if I'm going to lose the gut, I may as well lose the "man tits" too

But, 5 years ago, if you'd have told me I'd be changing my diet, aware of my fitness, doing ab and pec exercises, I'd have laughed at you. But things change in 5 years. I'm actually more fit now than I've ever been in my life. But I still feel the aches and pains in my joints a little longer than I used to ... and I'm only 31. In another 5 years, I may decide that my muscles need a workout and I'll find the willpower to put up with the boredom I find in weight training.

This is only my persoal issue with weight training, though. I don't advise others not to weight train. In fact, when someone asks me if I think it's a good idea, I say, "Absolutely."

What I've seen (with friends doing it) is that if you're training martial arts regularly while you're weight training, then it's virtually impossible to get so bulky that you lose flexibility.

People who only lift weights and don't do anything else can lose flexibility. Their body only does that one set of motions that's involved in their weight training. So those areas get worked, but the other areas don't get worked. They get "muscle bound" (I know, it's a bit of a misnomer, but it works for the discussion). People who also train in MA (or gymnastics, or Yoga, or whatever), their bodies remain supple while their muscle mass increases because their body doesn't get over specialized in some areas. I'm not sure that was the best way to phrase it, but I think it'll make sense to you folks

So, my advice to anyone who's interested in weight training but concerned about it affecting their MA: POSH! Keep active and well-rounded in your workouts and you'll never have a problem.

Mike

 

[headkick]

you would be able to bench press your opponent without having lifted regularly

I think lifting is a good idea. Particularly compund movements like squats, deadlifts and bench press. Squats are the single greatest weight lifting movement ever. It uses many more muscles than just the legs. If you aren't able to squat with weights, do it without them. If can develop the leg strength to stand from one leg (sit down, put one leg out straight and stand up on the other one) I do not want to spar you :erg:

But I would encourage people to do that. Muscle burns calories so you eat more pizza! :rofl:

 

[Kalicombat]

Mr. Casto,
Are those pictures of you?? Great job! I too lost alot of weight, 250 pounds to be exact. I started at 500 and am down to 250. Hopefully some day getting to 220. I did it on a NO CARB diet. It worked for me. Congratulations on the weight loss.

Gary Catherman.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by headkick
you would be able to bench press your opponent without having lifted regularly

I think lifting is a good idea. Particularly compund movements like squats, deadlifts and bench press. Squats are the single greatest weight lifting movement ever. It uses many more muscles than just the legs. If you aren't able to squat with weights, do it without them. If can develop the leg strength to stand from one leg (sit down, put one leg out straight and stand up on the other one) I do not want to spar you :erg:

But I would encourage people to do that. Muscle burns calories so you eat more pizza! :rofl:

The following is a bit of a departure from the core of the thread, but, I think, very relevant.

I would add to this and say that people should get some instruction in proper methods of exercising. It's so easy to do something wrong and injure oneself. Of course, like with the martial arts, an actual trainer is the best solution.

But a lot can be learned about proper exercising via reading or video, too. And take it slow. I've known quite a few people who tried to rush things and got ahead of what their body could handle. Even doing the exercises properly, they injured themselves through overexertion. It has to be built up.

A lot of men think, for instance, that using a 5 pound dumbbell is for sissies. But it's a good place to start. If you get absolutely nothing out of it, then move up to 10. It's not sissy, it's intelligence. Now, granted, a lot of guys can realistically start at a higher weight, but, IMHO, why take chances. If you've never done it before, then the lower weight is a good way to develop the proper form without risking a serious injury if you screw up.

It's analogous, in MA training, to slow-motion training. If I work the focus mitts or bag slowly and with precision, focusing on proper form and accuracy, then the speed and power will develop naturally and I'll end up able to hit much harder, faster, and more accurately than someone who starts working speed and power from the get-go. They end up fast and hard, but with little form or accuracy. So, by taking it slow and easy and building up, I end up hard and fast, and accurate, all with proper body mechanics. So, when moving at full speed/power, I end up using a lot more economy of motion, wasting a lot less energy, hitting my target more often, getting more mass behind my strikes for power. So I end up able to hit faster and harder than the other guy who's still flailing hard and fast.

The weights are the same (I know this from logic and second-hand experience, not first). If you start out light and focus on proper form, then gradually increase the weight/reps, then, in the long run, you'll end up better off. I don't know whether you'll end up stronger or not, but you're almost guaranteed to end up as strong with less damage done to your body along the way.

Mike

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Mr. Casto,
Are those pictures of you?? Great job!

Yup. They're of me. Thanks

I too lost alot of weight, 250 pounds to be exact. I started at 500 and am down to 250. Hopefully some day getting to 220. I did it on a NO CARB diet. It worked for me. Congratulations on the weight loss.

Gary Catherman.

LOL. I love bread way too much to go on a complete no carb diet. But I did cut back on my bread consumption and also found some good alternatives.

Healthy Life has some breads that are low carb and very good. The only one I've tried thus far is their sourdough bread. It's excellent. They also have white and wheat breads, but I haven't tried them yet. They're only 19g of carbohydrates for 2 slices of bread.

If you ever move up to a "low carb" diet, you might consider looking into it. Mix some cinnamon and Splenda, Egg Beaters, and 1% milk, then make French Toast with that sourdough bread, add a little Light Maple Syrup ... mmmman! It's tasty and still very low carb, low fat, low cal.

But, anyway, I've strayed a little from the topic at hand.

Way to go on your weight loss, though. That's impressive. I'm down to 205 now. My goal is 180. But if I don't get there, oh well. I never really expected to get to 220 so, at this point, I'll be more than happy if I stay below 220. And I don't really think that'll be a problem. At this point, the diet has become a habit. It's no longer a diet, it's just the way I eat. So even if I splurge occasionally and have a really decadent desert or something, I won't slip very far because it won't be enough to break my eating habits. I'd have to splurge every day for a month or more to break my habits.

I assume you've noticed this, too. In the first couple of months, I bet you craved bread and pasta all the time, right? But now, you never have more than a passing urge. It becomes habit.

And, to bring this post back a little toward the topic at hand, I'd guess that this same principle could be applied to people who wanted to gain mass for their weight training.

Mike

 

[Kalicombat]

Mr. Casto,
You're right on all accounts. This is just my lifestyle now, no longer a diet. I couldnt sit down and eat a plate of pasta or a sandwich or eat a donut. It just wouldn't happen. I did crave gnocchi and bread for about three months, but now, I dont even miss them. My kids look at me sometimes when Im making them fudge or streudel, and they just shake their heads and ask how I can cook all this stuff and not even taste it. My wife asks the same thing. Its just the way it is. I tell them that I doubt all the workers at the Jack Daniels Distillery sit around drinkin Jack Daniels all day.

Gary C.

 

[Elfan]

Go to a gym, see all those 20ish testoserone pumped men/teenagers? They are all *trying* to "get huge" and arn't, I seriosly doubt you are going to get "too big" by accident. And if you somehow manage to get too big all you have to do is lay off the weight lifting for a while and you will be all set.

 

[stacks]

physical strength is important in the gym for pushing and pulling objects. however striking key targets is not always about power but also about speed and accuarcy. the youngs guys have speed and to some extent endurance, but the seasoned martial artist has patience and timing. you do not want to be too big because you will move slower and your body is heavier. you want to keep the body lean and in great cardio condition other wise you will run out of steam too soon. do not waste time on hitting a target that is not there (i.e. to far away) let your attacker close the gap first and when he leaves an opening react to it

stacks :armed:

 

[Robbo]

For example, lets just say that a person that does not lift weights, and only does karate and conditioning generates a hypothetical amount of 150 lbs per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle. Then the same hypothetical person lifts weights and increases his or her strength, all the while maintaining the same level of conditioning and skill level with their martial arts, only now they generate 250 pounds per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle, wont that persons back knuckle strike be more effective??? Of course it will.

Depends on what your target is. If the back knuckle strike is to the bridge of the nose how much force do you need to break the nose, cause the eyes to water, etc.

I take this viewpoint as a scrawny 140 lb practioner that would rather work on accuracy and timing than 'pumping iron'.

I think that it also depends on your art. I don't think strength is as much of an advantage in Kenpo as it would be in a grappling art.

Rob