K
Kirk
Guest
What about all else being equal, but one is faster, and the other
is stronger?
What about all else being equal, but one is faster, and the other
is stronger?
I
Iron Dog
Guest
There are seven components of "Power" 1. Balance 2. Endurance
3. Flexibility 4. Speed 5. Focus 6. Strength 7. Simplicity. As you see strength in down the list. It is there not because it's not important, it's down the list because to be successful in any athletic endeavor, and that's what self defense is, these components must be cohesive to be viable. (From Sensei Steven Labounty at a seminar hosted by Rick Fowler in Dallas Texas, taken from borrowed notes). I'm an avid weight trainer, not a body builder, and the confidence that doing the iron, cardio and hands on gives me, is immeasurable. Some good responces on this one...
Iron Dog
3. Flexibility 4. Speed 5. Focus 6. Strength 7. Simplicity. As you see strength in down the list. It is there not because it's not important, it's down the list because to be successful in any athletic endeavor, and that's what self defense is, these components must be cohesive to be viable. (From Sensei Steven Labounty at a seminar hosted by Rick Fowler in Dallas Texas, taken from borrowed notes). I'm an avid weight trainer, not a body builder, and the confidence that doing the iron, cardio and hands on gives me, is immeasurable. Some good responces on this one...
Iron Dog
OP
OP
SingingTiger
Guest
I couldn't agree more. Thanks everyone!
Rich
K
Kenpo Yahoo
Guest
You think?!?!? Besides, what exactly is equal if the guy is stronger and faster?
The problem is that most "Martial Artists" don't train anywhere except the dojo or school or whatever you want to call it. The ones who are in combat arts (BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, etc.) spend a great deal of time working on both strength and cardio training. Most Kenpo guys don't like the comparison of these styles to kenpo. They say that their rules wouldn't work on the street. Since when does kenpo have the market cornered when it comes to fighting dirty. The point is that these particular arts encourage (and quite frankly expect) serious physical training along with their knowledge based training. It makes sense and gives you a decent breakdown of what an good fighter should look like. I think kenpo incorporates the best scientific understanding into it's techs, but that only works if you can move the knowledge from your brain out to the edge of a hand or foot.
I look at it like this:
1/4 of your ability is from knowledge training (i.e. in the dojo)
1/4 of your ability is from experience (real experience)
1/4 of your ability is in your muscular strength
+ 1/4 of your ability is in your physical endurance (cardio)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/4 a complete fighter
A large percentage of people in the MA's have no experience or are gaining experience as they study. So if you rely completely on your strength and YOUR learned understanding (not experience) then you've got a 50%-50% shot. I don't know about you, but that's not good enough for me. That's why I'm trying to develop my abilities in each of those areas to the utmost.
Like I said before these are just my opinions, You don't have to agree just give it some thought
I can't agree with this breakdown. I think it should be more like 30% from training, 50% from experience, 10% from muscular strength, and 10% from endurance.
The reason for this is that muscular strength and endurance will fade over time. I know, there are people who are in their 60's, 70's, 80's, and even 90's who are incredibly fit and strong. But all of them that I've met tell me, "You shoulda seen me [insert number greater than 20] years ago!" This leads me to believe that they have (or at least feel that they have) lost something.
Some people, and I'm a case in point, are now in better shape than they've ever been previously. At 31, I'm trimmer, stronger, and have better endurance (as far as physical exercise) than I've ever had in my life. Period. But I still don't heal as fast as I used to. I can't go 30, 40, 50+ hours without sleep (used to do that pretty commonly). I have to *work* to keep things limber and they still pop and groan on occasion.
Strength and endurance will degenerate with age and there's nothing we can do to stop it (we can slow the process down, of course, but it will happen regardless). Consequently, they're not things we should rely on. What we should rely on is our training and experience; which only increase with age.
Mike
B
brianhunter
Guest
What about guts?? I don't know if you can train for that. Maybe it falls under experience, But I think guts plays a bigger factor then it is being given credit for.
And adreniline is something that can severly alter the strength factor when the el toro poo poo hits the oscalating wind device!
I really think sometimes it comes down to "who wanted it more" not just how strong the guy is or isnt.
Absolutely. But to me, that kind of falls outside of this equation. I don't know that attitude can be trained and I don't think experience can give it to you. I think it's something you have or don't have. Though training/experience may draw it out of you from where it was previously hidden. I think it's more of an attribute like height. You have it or you don't. Either way, you have to learn (which falls under the training/experience) how to use it like any other tool, or, if you don't have it, you have to learn ways to deal with not having it.
I put more on experience because training is academic. It's like college courses. College courses can help prepare you, intellectually, for the real world. But it's not the equal of real world experience.
Mike
S
SRyuFighter
Guest
It's important to be strong enough to inleast hurt someone. If you can't hurt anyone no matter where u hit them then u need help. But strength is not everything.
Proper target selection and accuracy can help that. It doesn't take much to dislocate a knee. I've read everything from 3 pounds PSI (if well-placed) to 20 pounds PSI. Even 20 PSI doesn't require a great deal of strength, just accuracy and committed intent. Same with elbows. It takes less than that to poke an eye (as someone else already mentioned in this thread). If you catch a finger, it can de dislocated with just a little pressure on the right line. A slap to the ear doesn't take much strength but can screw with someone's balance and may rupture their eardrum.
It doesn't take a lot of strength to hurt someone. Just some well placed mass with some decent body mechanics - and everyone has mass.
The real root of physical power doesn't come from muscular strength. It comes from relaxation and body mechanics. Add accuracy and intent and you've got a strike that can inflict a lot of damage, even if thrown by a 98 pound "weakling."
If you've got strength to add to it, great! So much the better. But strength, in my opinion, is icing on the cake and, because of its inherent tendency to fade over time, not something to be relied on.
Mike
R
RCastillo
Guest
Yeah, your gonna have to rehab those ribs more when I get through with them!:boxing:
And quit stealing my Workout tips!
I'll let everyone on this forum know that I pulled my ribs from my sternum grappling a grappler!!! My mind will not change on this subject about grappling. :asian: After 6 yrs. of wrestling Jr. high, and then high school. Wrestling all over the state of ohio and top athletes, 2nd black in a TKD/Aikido mixed art, also a 1st black in kenpo at the time STILL did not prepare me enough to grapple a grapplers game. :asian:
OR maybe it's because of my friends ability as a multiple JJ world champion as well as a handful of his students are ranked as world champions that they are just that good and I was out of my league.
And quit stealing my Workout tips!
I thought that you were stealing my tips pal!
K
KanoLives
Guest
I have to agree with this. Well said.
R
RCastillo
Guest
Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I'll let everyone on this forum know that I pulled my ribs from my sternum grappling a grappler!!! My mind will not change on this subject about grappling. :asian: After 6 yrs. of wrestling Jr. high, and then high school. Wrestling all over the state of ohio and top athletes, 2nd black in a TKD/Aikido mixed art, also a 1st black in kenpo at the time STILL did not prepare me enough to grapple a grapplers game. :asian:
OR maybe it's because of my friends ability as a multiple JJ world champion as well as a handful of his students are ranked as world champions that they are just that good and I was out of my league.
I thought that you were stealing my tips pal!
Rest, while you still can!
M
MountainSage
Guest
jfarnsworth you are so right. I also returned to my grappling root resently and found that two years of TKD has do very little for me in the conditioning and strength field. If you can't grapple, you are in deep trouble. The MA on TV is not reality and the tournament sparring only works under very specific rules that allow a specific style to win. If you want to be strong, grab a wrestler and hang on.
Mountain Sage
Mountain Sage
L
lonekimono
Guest
Look if you want to learn how to fight while you are on the ground(i hope you never fine yourself there) LEARN KENPO
you do the math
yours in kenpo
you do the math
yours in kenpo
... as said before; in a real fight could you have hurt him Jason? Fingers actually blinding him, crushing testicles, or larynx?
It is fun to challenge ourselves mano y mano, but is it worth the type of injury you sustained? I assume this was a "friendly" bout? And you still want to be able to meet a grappler on his own ground, (pun intended) probably because of your grappling skill set. I have no such illusions. I don't want to out wrestle him; I want to SURVIVE him and HURT him as quick as I can with the minimal amount of damage done to myself. I blew out a knee trying to out wrestle a University of Texas wrestling team guy. My lesson was learned the hard way. I have had to grapple since then, and learned from it that I don't want to be there ... and what I can do not to be.
You can assert all day long you need to learn BJJ or some other grappling art, Chin Na, Sao Jow, etc., but at the heart of this is wanting to "beat" someone on their own ground. Which is fine if you are ok with the inherent risk of training for this. It is ok to play with this idea but I encourage everyone to explore Kenpo Theories, Concepts, and Principles in this context. Unless you just enjoy pain, and a very high risk of injury, then BJJ is what it is. I never saw a class where something was not taped, broken, torn, dislocated, cut or scraped due to injuries.
Choose, but choose wisely.
-Michael Kenpo-Texas.com
It is fun to challenge ourselves mano y mano, but is it worth the type of injury you sustained? I assume this was a "friendly" bout? And you still want to be able to meet a grappler on his own ground, (pun intended) probably because of your grappling skill set. I have no such illusions. I don't want to out wrestle him; I want to SURVIVE him and HURT him as quick as I can with the minimal amount of damage done to myself. I blew out a knee trying to out wrestle a University of Texas wrestling team guy. My lesson was learned the hard way. I have had to grapple since then, and learned from it that I don't want to be there ... and what I can do not to be.
You can assert all day long you need to learn BJJ or some other grappling art, Chin Na, Sao Jow, etc., but at the heart of this is wanting to "beat" someone on their own ground. Which is fine if you are ok with the inherent risk of training for this. It is ok to play with this idea but I encourage everyone to explore Kenpo Theories, Concepts, and Principles in this context. Unless you just enjoy pain, and a very high risk of injury, then BJJ is what it is. I never saw a class where something was not taped, broken, torn, dislocated, cut or scraped due to injuries.
Choose, but choose wisely.
-Michael Kenpo-Texas.com
Training safely is always a priority in my book. I don't think groundfighting has to be inherently dangerous (except for abrasions, but they're not injuries). To me an "injury" is something that inhibits my training or my day-to-day function. Anything else is just pain and pain is fleeting.
I'm not a big fan of groundfighting. If I can avoid going there, I will. Period. But, there are no guarantees in a fight. All sorts of things can happen that will mean I have to fight on the ground. This is especially true here in Louisville where the winters tend to be white and icy. Get in a fight in the winter and you're almost guaranteed to be on the ground. Same in spring when it's muddy. But even outside of these things, I may trip over an obstacle or just flat-out get knocked down.
For these reasons I think it's important to be competent on the ground.
Nope. That's not the only reason (though, admittedly, it is the primary reason for many people). My groundfighting game, for instance, isn't geared toward "beating" someone on the ground. If I can finish the fight there I will, of course. But my ground game is geared toward getting back up ASAP and in one piece.
I've not had any extensive training in groundwork (the most extensive I've had is Harimau Silat and it's a pretty different beast than what most people in America think of when they think groundfighting [which, these days, tends to mean BJJ]). But I am competent on the ground and feel that it's important to be so.
When I have the chance to work (train or spar) with groundfighters, I take it. Because the best way to learn to defend against something (anything) is to understand it; to understand its strengths and weaknesses. So, in learning to deal with groundfighters, it's a good idea to work out with groundfighters. Even if my intent has nothing to do with groundfighting, per se.
Very good point. But something to consider is, if you're fighting (which is what you're talking about) then your opponent has all those options, too. If the guy has trained purely for competition then you'll have an advantage. Otherwise, if you end up on the ground, he'll have the advantage and be able to use all that stuff against you just as easily as you can use it against him.
I personally think it pays to be well-rounded. I don't feel the need to try to be a specialist in everything. I've got a few specialties. Groundfighting is certainly not among them. But I keep my groundfighting at a basic level of proficiency so that, if I hit the ground, I'm not completely clueless.
Having said all that, do I think it's necessary to train in a "groundfighting" system (such as BJJ) in order to gain this proficiency. No. In fact, if you're imaginative and experiment, you can learn to apply all your standup game to the ground. And, largely, this is what I personally do. But I find that, when I have a chance to work with a specialist, it really helps my understanding of the game which, in turn, helps my ability to cope with others who try to take the situation to that place.
Mike
I still join his class from time to time as I thoroughly enjoy the grappling game. My ribs will proably always be the same from here on out and that's fine I accept it 'cause that's what happened. The person I was grappling didn't set forth to mess me up. We were training and it is just an accident that happened. My instructor friend asks me to come in and join his crew and I accept knowing the risks that could be involved. He had a horrible accident happen in his class a yr. ago and yet it still wouldn't stop me from training with him. We all know the risks taken even just getting out of bed in the morning.
My passion for ground fighting is still there and probably always will be. Yesterday I went to the H.S. I graduated from for a boy scout meeting. For a moment I went to the wall of the all ohio people to see that my picture wasn't up there with the rest of the wrestlers(even the ones I grad. with). Before 'ya roll your eyes I never made it to the state tournament. However as I've stated before there were many state placers I beat in other tournaments, state qualifiers, and even was extremely close in a tight match with the state champ that won the same year. My point being is that I never had that extra little "luck" needed to get to the big tourney. Back on track. This is where my passion for the ground fighting started. Luck and chance is what we take everyday in every aspect of life. From walking to running to jumping. In a car, plane, or train. Anything can happen to anyone of us at any time.:asian:
My passion for ground fighting is still there and probably always will be. Yesterday I went to the H.S. I graduated from for a boy scout meeting. For a moment I went to the wall of the all ohio people to see that my picture wasn't up there with the rest of the wrestlers(even the ones I grad. with). Before 'ya roll your eyes I never made it to the state tournament. However as I've stated before there were many state placers I beat in other tournaments, state qualifiers, and even was extremely close in a tight match with the state champ that won the same year. My point being is that I never had that extra little "luck" needed to get to the big tourney. Back on track. This is where my passion for the ground fighting started. Luck and chance is what we take everyday in every aspect of life. From walking to running to jumping. In a car, plane, or train. Anything can happen to anyone of us at any time.:asian:
Oh most definately.
I would just like to survive with as many tools as possible.:asian:
I am not unaware of any of the points made by either of you.
I love Silat and have done some BJJ, but still think that "my game", which I never would call it, is going to be Kenpo related ground work, and still more of a striking art. I love Wally Jay's Small Circle work and have gained some proficiency in that before moving into more contact manipulations / controls / immobilizations that are found within the Kenpo system itself. I am comfortable on the ground, but do not train there nearly as often as I did a decade ago.
I think my point, if I had one, is that focusing on Kenpo is a full time job for me now days, and I have still only scratched the surface. I "Play" with ground fighters also and they are usually surprised by my responses, because they do not fall within the paradigm they are expecting.
The street is the street. Anything goes, both ways. Hopefully those that train for trouble are better at avoiding it, than those who are looking for trouble. But when the rubber meets the road all the stops come out and I am committed to my own survival, as I have no doubt you both are.
My experience with the injuries is a personal one, from several MMA or BJJ schools that focus on the ground game. Not to mention my own personal injuries, my students, etc., etc. It is still higher risk for a number of reasons that are self-evident. Primarily, you are taking a joint into the pain threshold, or past it's maximum range of motion, to get to the pain threshold. It takes a lot of training in sensitivity not to pass this point and injure. The second point is that I have seen guys choked out because they would not tap out ... not in competition, but because they were trying to be tough, well they were. Third, when adrenaline is up it is easy to sustain injuries you are not aware of; this is ok in a fight (hopefully you do not get in lots of fights in the real world.) My final point, the last one I will point out for now, is that a lot of times the injuries I see are not from an opponent, but something you did to yourself, jammed or broken fingers being a big one.
There are lots of things we can do to minimize injuries, and should do. But in my experience STUFF HAPPENS, you get into it and nobody is intentionally hurt, but I still see a class full of tape. Abrasions don't count. I just added them cuz they were there.
This was meant more as an observation rather than a retort to your position and opinion. I want to encourage others to explore the Principles, Concepts and Theories within their own Core Art prior to branching out. Nothing is wrong with challenging ourselves and learning from where ever we can once we reach a certain level of proficiency and our instructors concur.
I don't mean any disrespect to either of you, not at all. It is just that a "newby" seeing a statement like "learn a ground game" well may go out and try to, ending up hurting themselves prior to establishing or exploring their own system.
Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com
I love Silat and have done some BJJ, but still think that "my game", which I never would call it, is going to be Kenpo related ground work, and still more of a striking art. I love Wally Jay's Small Circle work and have gained some proficiency in that before moving into more contact manipulations / controls / immobilizations that are found within the Kenpo system itself. I am comfortable on the ground, but do not train there nearly as often as I did a decade ago.
I think my point, if I had one, is that focusing on Kenpo is a full time job for me now days, and I have still only scratched the surface. I "Play" with ground fighters also and they are usually surprised by my responses, because they do not fall within the paradigm they are expecting.
The street is the street. Anything goes, both ways. Hopefully those that train for trouble are better at avoiding it, than those who are looking for trouble. But when the rubber meets the road all the stops come out and I am committed to my own survival, as I have no doubt you both are.
My experience with the injuries is a personal one, from several MMA or BJJ schools that focus on the ground game. Not to mention my own personal injuries, my students, etc., etc. It is still higher risk for a number of reasons that are self-evident. Primarily, you are taking a joint into the pain threshold, or past it's maximum range of motion, to get to the pain threshold. It takes a lot of training in sensitivity not to pass this point and injure. The second point is that I have seen guys choked out because they would not tap out ... not in competition, but because they were trying to be tough, well they were. Third, when adrenaline is up it is easy to sustain injuries you are not aware of; this is ok in a fight (hopefully you do not get in lots of fights in the real world.) My final point, the last one I will point out for now, is that a lot of times the injuries I see are not from an opponent, but something you did to yourself, jammed or broken fingers being a big one.
There are lots of things we can do to minimize injuries, and should do. But in my experience STUFF HAPPENS, you get into it and nobody is intentionally hurt, but I still see a class full of tape. Abrasions don't count. I just added them cuz they were there.
This was meant more as an observation rather than a retort to your position and opinion. I want to encourage others to explore the Principles, Concepts and Theories within their own Core Art prior to branching out. Nothing is wrong with challenging ourselves and learning from where ever we can once we reach a certain level of proficiency and our instructors concur.
I don't mean any disrespect to either of you, not at all. It is just that a "newby" seeing a statement like "learn a ground game" well may go out and try to, ending up hurting themselves prior to establishing or exploring their own system.
Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com
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