how hard do you hit a heavybag

[MJS]

Actually, when it comes to kicking the heavy bag, you're going to get much more power using the shin instead of the instep. If you're doing point fighting, then yeah, those snappy kicks with the instep are fine, but for SD, going with the shin is the better choice. A good example are MMA fights. How many snappy kicks with the instep do you see there???

Mike

 

[OC Kid]

I teach that the snap kicks are to be used like a boxers jab or a M/A back fist, just to set up another technique usually a power one.

 

[MJS]

I teach that the snap kicks are to be used like a boxers jab or a M/A back fist, just to set up another technique usually a power one.

Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying. As I've said before, everything has its place, even snappy kicks. It all depends on what your goal is at the time of doing the kick. A quick snapping kick, with the front leg towards the groin is very effective, and not easily telegraphed. However, if you wanted to kick at your opps. leg, and really get some solid results, then the Thai style kick with the shin is your better choice.

Mike

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying. As I've said before, everything has its place, even snappy kicks. It all depends on what your goal is at the time of doing the kick. A quick snapping kick, with the front leg towards the groin is very effective, and not easily telegraphed. However, if you wanted to kick at your opps. leg, and really get some solid results, then the Thai style kick with the shin is your better choice.

Mike

I suppose "snappy" kicks would be beneficial on a bag, aside from practicing for point sparring, by way of toning your leg muscles. But, as a "practicing" thai fighter I do heavy conditioning in an attempt to prepare my self to take those thai round kicks (hey, i can't block EVERYTHING). My bubbdy, who trains in kempo literally stopped using them (snap kicks) when sparring, because they were next to ineffective. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, like MJS said everthing has it's place. However, IMHO a jab as a lead in to a combo is a lot more safe than a kick, take that with a grain of salt. However, i would suggest going ot a boxing forum and asking. Those guys spend more time on bags than thai fighters do, and they will be able to tell you how condition yourself and keep you injury free when going 100%--the key word:100%. Hope everything's working out.

AJ

 

[OC Kid]

Ive done Thai and Kempo and Karate they all have their strong points. Like all things its personal preferance. Im guessing here but :

A Kempo practitioner fighting a Thai fighter has to change /limit his techniques. I dont think you allow groin kicks when you 2 spar for example, do you allow sweeps/ take downs?

So if you limit his techniques to spar that you dont use. Did you /would you as a Thai practitioner change your style to fight a kempo guy on HIS terms it would be different.
You both train differently using different techniques you cannot compare apples and oranges

 

[Zujitsuka]

I say again, wrap your hands and use bag gloves when hitting the heavy bag. Just like any other workout, do not go full power all the time as that will lead to overtraining and over-use injuries. Some of the senior black belts in the system that I train in have some of the ugliest, most deformed hands on the planet. Plus they have all type of wrist, elbow, and shoulder problems. Those guys have a background in Nisei Goju (back in the "Knockout Karate" days). Even though they had proper fist alignment and body mechanics when they threw punches at whatever hard surface they were striking, they are worse for wear today. I don't know for sure, but I hear that the founder of Kyokushin Kai Karatedo, Mas Oyama, was literally broken-down later in life because of the way he trained.

How are you going to be ready for battle if you hurt yourself in the dojo/gym?

Just like car shocks, your wrists and other joints can take but so much - even if you lift weights or whatever. Personally, I prefer open hand strikes. Guys like Tony Blauer (SPEAR), Richard Dimitri (Senshido, Inc.), and Systema and Bagua practitioners are on to something. However, working the heavy bag is a great workout and sort of an acid test to see if your mechanics are correct.

Also, here is an article about training smart so that you can preserve yourself as you age, http://www.blackbeltmag.com/documen...&keyword=bob and orlando&summary=1&startsum=1

Peace & health,

 

[MJS]

Just like car shocks, your wrists and other joints can take but so much - even if you lift weights or whatever. Personally, I prefer open hand strikes. Guys like Tony Blauer (SPEAR), Richard Dimitri (Senshido, Inc.), and Systema and Bagua practitioners are on to something. However, working the heavy bag is a great workout and sort of an acid test to see if your mechanics are correct.

Good point! Open handed strikes can be just as effective as a closed fist, and you dont run as much of a risk of hurting your hand. Something as simple as a slap can get some very good results.

Mike

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Ive done Thai and Kempo and Karate they all have their strong points. Like all things its personal preferance. Im guessing here but :

A Kempo practitioner fighting a Thai fighter has to change /limit his techniques. I dont think you allow groin kicks when you 2 spar for example, do you allow sweeps/ take downs?

So if you limit his techniques to spar that you dont use. Did you /would you as a Thai practitioner change your style to fight a kempo guy on HIS terms it would be different.
You both train differently using different techniques you cannot compare apples and oranges

Actually, i do a lot of sweeps and stand up grappling that lead to take downs via heel trips and whatnot. I don't believe in rules when it comes to sparring. 'cept the groin thing. Acutally one of my best friends trains in kempo--just got his second stripe in brown not too long ago, woo-hoo!--and I spar w/him all the time. I need to learn how to adapt my style, because the odds these days--in my area--of having an altercation with somebody who's into cage fighting is increasing everytime the have one of those WWF w/kicks cage fights. And i think you can compare. . .this weekend i'll be hanging with my buddy, whom i haven't seen for a while. I think he's 3rd or 4th black in TSD or hawrangdo (sp???). and we'll proly work out, maybe some light sparring. All martial arts compare in some fashion, particularly when you are open to learning. Cheers!

AJ

 

[OC Kid]

I concurr

 

[Ippon Ken]

I suppose "snappy" kicks would be beneficial on a bag, aside from practicing for point sparring, by way of toning your leg muscles. But, as a "practicing" thai fighter I do heavy conditioning in an attempt to prepare my self to take those thai round kicks (hey, i can't block EVERYTHING). My bubbdy, who trains in kempo literally stopped using them (snap kicks) when sparring, because they were next to ineffective. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, like MJS said everthing has it's place. However, IMHO a jab as a lead in to a combo is a lot more safe than a kick, take that with a grain of salt. However, i would suggest going ot a boxing forum and asking. Those guys spend more time on bags than thai fighters do, and they will be able to tell you how condition yourself and keep you injury free when going 100%--the key word:100%. Hope everything's working out.

AJ

Not snap kicks, whip kicks. Snap kicks (mae geri keage) and thrust kicks (mae geri kekomi) are modern Japanized karate kicks. They are safe kicks not meant for anything but kumite (sparring). The kick I'm speaking of is the whip kick.

The whip-kick is very similar to the Thai Kick, but instead of extending all the way past or around the target, where position and balance may be affected, once you go through the target you immediately bring it back to the ground. It is the original kick of the Shuri Te systems (Shorin) and is rarely taught these days.

If you kick someone in the jaw with it, like Chuck Lidell often does, you'll most likely k.o. them. If you use your shoetips or toe tips to kick the femoral nerver/artery or even the outside thigh, it really penetrates and it'll stop'em in their tracks 9 times out of 10. You can also use the shin for in-close kicking, but practice making all points of contact tough- shins, insteps, big toes, blade-of-the-foot, heell, balls-of-the feet, ankle bones- that way you have more options.

I think I explained my position on a related thread. Maybe I am an Iron Guy but I think it has more to do with proper training for decades now more than freak-of-nature stuff. If you scrape your knuckles when you punch then you need to check your punching dynamics. Good form prevents scraping and delivering your punches straight in and back is what prevents this, as does eliminating pushing your techs. Crispness and form, that's the key (and something you get with proper kata training).

Peace and if I use Hip Hop terminology, I apologize. Like Okinawan karate it's been a part of me for over 20 years. (It's) Not contrived and "rap" lingo. It's the language of the transformation of the New World Slaughter to the True World Order, hahaha! Get with it or get gone!!!

 

[kenpo tiger]

"Peace and if I use Hip Hop terminology, I apologize. Like Okinawan karate it's been a part of me for over 20 years. (It's) Not contrived and "rap" lingo. It's the language of the transformation of the New World Slaughter to the True World Order, hahaha! Get with it or get gone!!!

"

I have the feeling there's more to you than you let on. New World Slaughter indeed! No apologies necessary.

 

[kanjc]

I use a 100lb heavy bag and the only way have been able to avoid any injury is 1)wrap my hands and wrist and 2) I use the Tae Bo gloves that have the extra padding and the wrist support. I hit the bag as hard and as fast as I can, if I hit it with a glancing blow I am still going to hurt myself that is due to poor aim and not the power behind the punch.

 

[GAB]

Hello,

I just saw this post, I am going to answer the original question and not let any of the others interfere with my post.

First off I am quite a bit older then the rest of you, I have been in the fighting game for a long time, I have been hurt badly in some major altercations and have given as good as I have received.

I just wanted to say that, so you will know where I am coming from. I have trained a lot over the years and am in pretty good condition considering, I am
6' 2" and weigh 220lbs, 63 years this Dec.

I have switched to FMA (sticks) I like the flow, the drills, moving constantly,
no body contact. I have also studied various other arts, being in my background so if I need them, I still have them.

The heavy bag is a very good work out tool, I usually don't get to it until I am really worked and very warm and limber. I like to hit the speed bags usually leather and not real hard (that way they are easier on your hands and you still have got to hit them to make them work).

There might be some of you that wear protection ( I never do) It is a good thing for training not to wear protection on your hands if you are hitting like I do. I will tell you how I hit the bags, I am not in any way saying this is the best or all of you need to do this, I am just giving you one mans opinion.

I hit with closed fist, vertical and horizontal, palm strikes, finger strikes, extended finger strikes, knuckle strikes (partially closed fingers) side palm strikes, hammer strikes, back hand, forehand and any other you can think of.

These I do on the speed bags, numerous at different levels so I can also be using my legs in different positions (stance Horse hi, low etc.) I am sometimes static sometimes moving (depending on the various bags I am using).

I hit the heavy bag with a fluid motion sometimes static sometimes moving,
I hit it with a lot of the same strikes, I mentioned above, mostly with fingers tight, I also slap it, kick it, hit it with my knee, sweeps and anything else you can think of. I bump it with my shoulder, hip and buttocks, head etc.

As I said, it is never with any protection, fairly soft but heavy. I usually will spend about 45 min/ 60 min on the various bags, speed, heavy.

I like the bag (ball) on a rope tied to top and bungie cord hooked to the bottom, also at various heights. Moving constantly hitting, dodging in close, so the bag is an opponent coming back at you as hard as you send it out.

I like to work on that quite a bit of the time I am spending on the various bags. I hit it with my hands, arms, elbows, shoulder, head. It is hitting me.I am hitting it.
I also am working with the sticks, while I take a breather with the bags.

I go back to the heavy bag and work on it with the sticks, Double sticks on the bag. Constantly moving hitting using the various stances on the above,
spinning, hitting, kicking, all the time with no protection.

I don't do any thing where physical contact is used I can not trust my opponent not to hurt me. I am not complaining, I am stating a fact, I train the best I can to have health (mental and physcial).

If I have to fight it will be only if I cannot avoid it, or for protecting my loved ones etc. I figure, I will be in the best shape I can be, and thats all I can do.

I like the Mentality of the art called "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo". The Enlightenment side of it, I am older and wiser. I am not trying to prove anything, I try not to, but I do have a hostile side to me also..

I don't need bodily contact anymore I need the exercise, time in motion and skills I have to hit and strike. Bare handed always and with the stick..

I hit the bag as hard as my barehands and body tell me to hit it.
Does all this make any sense??

If you have read this you are as dedicated as I am, or you also are a little bit crazy, like I am.

Like Waylon Jennings Sings " I am a little bit crazy, but it keeps me from going insane". Regards, Gary

 

[loki09789]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.

I am not trying to be snide here but your injuries aren't from the heavy bag, but from how you are using the heavy bag to train. I only say that to reinforce the idea that heavy bags and any thing else are only training tools.

You might want to talk to some competitive/boxing/MMA/Kick boxing TRAINERS on how they use bag work progressively to train their people from scratch. There is definitey a process of joint toughening that has to happen.

Also, it is really surprising who many people, even in the 'trained' community over train or over use certain tools because they think more is better.

Consider that 'power training', as recommended by sports performance experts is usually a 10:50 ration type of thing or for every 10 seconds of POWER work you should rest 50 seconds. Another ration that is usually recommended is 4-8 MAX reps with a MIN of 2 minutes rest for full recovery between sets. If you translate that to bag work or any other sport specific martial arts training that you are using to develop power I would say that once or twice a week doing 4 or 5 15 to 30 seconds bursts of full power striking (shorter for freeform 'rounds') with at least 1.5 minutes of rest between sets would be enough to balance that line between power improvement in your techniques without risking injury. Most MArtists, including myself at times, tend to keep going because it feels so good to bang away on that bag and end up doing too much because of that or other reasons.

You can use the bag to work on cardio, coordination, timing and such with lower striking force as part of the routines, but this will also reduce the injury curve as well.

I would really say set goals and periodize/cycle your training so that you are allowing your body recovery time as well. There are great resources out there to help you with this stuff as well.