How good is systema groundfighting compared to Jujutsu or Brazilian jujutsu?

[Streetfigher2006]

I posted a thread in the Japanese martial arts area but was told to post it here and see the responses. I have been trying to find an art that does decent street groundfighting. I am not talking sport groundfighting i'm talking life or death stuff. I recently discovered a jujutus class however the school is too far from me to travel and as a student I don't have the money to travel 30 or so miles for a jujutsu class. I saw an add in the paper about systema's art. Apparently they cover groundfighting and its meant to be a highly adaptive art since they use it in the military. I don't know wheather or not its true that they really use it in the spetnaz but it sounds good. It could be just good marketing. Anyway it is the Ryabko style systema and its just 10 mins away from my flat.. It sounded pretty good but I wanted to know what the opinion of the board is. Is there anyone that has done both arts that can give a decent comparison Thanks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

For some reason BJJ does not focus on leg locks. This is bad if you want to learn leg lock counters from BJJ but I feel it is a strong base.
Sean

 

[D Dempsey]

Apparently they cover groundfighting and its meant to be a highly adaptive art since they use it in the military.

This isn't really a good reason. I'm in the U.S. Army and our combative style is highly based off of BJJ. So following that logic you could say the exact same thing about BJJ. If you want to learn to be a good ground fighter go find a decent BJJ, Judo, or Sambo school. I'm not saying that systema is a bad art or anything I'm just saying that ground fighting isn't what they train for all of the time.

 

[NYCRonin]

My BJJ background is limited to lil practice with those who do this....but have training in study under Vladimir, regarding this subject. Also some stuff from my work.

Anyway, this might be best for you to go to the place that could teach you this..and observe...maybe they have a tryout session or two where you can feel this out.

And if its not what your looking for....look on.

Experience is far more valid than opinions....try it out.
Might be exactly what suits you..ask the instructor about this.
you will most probably find him/her very willing to answer your concerns.

 

[D Dempsey]

Training in RMA definately has benefits. I primarily train in BJJ, but I work out with an RMAX study group (I know it's techniquely not a RMA but it's pretty close). There have been a lot of things that I was able to add to repetoir and has overall made me a better fighter.

 

[NYCRonin]

Rmax. Well, I can see how it has added to your abilities.
Although I have yet to meet with S Sonnen...I have had good experiences with him..and the things he offers.
I am sure that theres alot for you in that RMAX goldmine..good luck with that.
******

Ground work.
There can be many differing motivations for this specialized form of study.
And maybe if there was more from you streetfighter - about the 'why' of your interest...maybe someone here can give more informative answers.

I am willing to try...but would like to be more specific.

 

[barriecusvein]

which systema school in london is it? i trained for a bit at the class taught by val razanov (spelling?) near the edgeware road. those classes were really good, val is a great instructor. but while i was there we didnt do any groundfighting. i only trained for a couple of months before i had to stop cos im a poor student and couldnt afford it. but im told by friends who trained for a lot longer that the groundfighting there is really good.

 

[Streetfigher2006]

yes I believe I didn't quite explain myself properly enough. What I trying to know is if systema incorperate groundfighting into their curriculum. If yes then how effective is it and is it street effective. I used to do northen style shaolin kung fu at one time and they didn't incorporate any groundfighting at all. also wanted to know how thier groundfighting compared to Jujutsu or BJJ since they are both well known groundfighting arts. I am not trying to find a groundfighting art. I am trying to find a good art that has groundfighting in it. Jujutsu would be my choice except its too far to travel (I live in Middlesex which is the out skirt of london and the place is 25 miles away). Also appararently systema is a military art so its is proven to be effective like Krav maga. Wheather or not its true I don't know. Thank you.

 

[D Dempsey]

Also appararently systema is a military art so its is proven to be effective like Krav maga. Wheather or not its true I don't know. Thank you.

I wouldn't let this sway you in anyway. Being a military art doesn't really mean much. The U.S. Army does BJJ, thus BJJ can be considered a military art. The same thing goes for TKD and the Korean military. Give systema a go if it's nearby, I would. You really have nothing to lose. As for the ground fighting... I've only seen the DVD for it's defense on the ground and I wasn't really impressed. Some of it was decent but it doesn't really compare to an art that spends almost all of it's time groundfighting.

 

[green meanie]

I wouldn't let this sway you in anyway. Being a military art doesn't really mean much. The U.S. Army does BJJ, thus BJJ can be considered a military art. The same thing goes for TKD and the Korean military. Give systema a go if it's nearby, I would. You really have nothing to lose. As for the ground fighting... I've only seen the DVD for it's defense on the ground and I wasn't really impressed. Some of it was decent but it doesn't really compare to an art that spends almost all of it's time groundfighting.

Agreed. Don't buy into the hype. The best thing to do is just go and try it out and see if its right for you.

 

[Paul Genge]

There are three clubs in London that are affiliated to each other. Try them all as they have different flavours. One of the clubs is run by Val who was a KGB combat sambo champion and coach prior to coming to the UK and then finding systema.

He also offers training in this art I believe as well as systema.

Paul

 

[D Dempsey]

That sounds like an awesome place to train. If there were a school like that here in El Paso I would definately be there.

 

[seal]

I posted a thread in the Japanese martial arts area but was told to post it here and see the responses. I have been trying to find an art that does decent street groundfighting. I am not talking sport groundfighting i'm talking life or death stuff. I recently discovered a jujutus class however the school is too far from me to travel and as a student I don't have the money to travel 30 or so miles for a jujutsu class. I saw an add in the paper about systema's art. Apparently they cover groundfighting and its meant to be a highly adaptive art since they use it in the military. I don't know wheather or not its true that they really use it in the spetnaz but it sounds good. It could be just good marketing. Anyway it is the Ryabko style systema and its just 10 mins away from my flat.. It sounded pretty good but I wanted to know what the opinion of the board is. Is there anyone that has done both arts that can give a decent comparison Thanks.

I hope I won't sound like a broken drum, repeating exactly the same message but using different words.

Here's the deal: I'm sure the army soldier, D Dempsey, will agree with me in that the last place you want to be is on the ground. His (I sincerely apologize if I mistake you for a male) training is even more crucial because he's carrying a lot of extra weight and he has to be wary of an enemy reaching for his gun, all on the ground. The objective of groundfighting is to know enough so you can get back on your feet.

Having said all that, I'd say combat sambo or ROSS is a good alternative to Systema. I know little to nothing about Systema's groundfighting module. But I do know both ROSS and combat Sambo provide sufficient knowledge of groundfighting. Good luck.

 

[RachelK]

Here's the deal: I'm sure the army soldier, D Dempsey, will agree with me in that the last place you want to be is on the ground. His (I sincerely apologize if I mistake you for a male) training is even more crucial because he's carrying a lot of extra weight and he has to be wary of an enemy reaching for his gun, all on the ground. The objective of groundfighting is to know enough so you can get back on your feet.

I think this is quite different from Systema's approach to groundfighting. The ground is just another plane, not necessarily the last place you want to be (especially if bullets are flying). There is no psychological association of failure with going to the ground. The objective is not only getting back to your feet, working offensively on the ground is very much a part of Systema training. But of course, I am civilian, and we don't train while carrying 60 pounds of gear. I can't comment on military training since I don't know anything about it. But I do know that offensive groundwork is a regular part of Systema training.

Best,
Rachel

 

[seal]

I think this is quite different from Systema's approach to groundfighting. The ground is just another plane, not necessarily the last place you want to be (especially if bullets are flying). There is no psychological association of failure with going to the ground. The objective is not only getting back to your feet, working offensively on the ground is very much a part of Systema training. But of course, I am civilian, and we don't train while carrying 60 pounds of gear. I can't comment on military training since I don't know anything about it. But I do know that offensive groundwork is a regular part of Systema training.

Best,
Rachel

Ok, when I say the last place you want to be is on the ground, it was with respect to, say, a gang cornering in a street alley or even with a inebriated, potentially dangerous fellow. Obviously, if bullets are flying at you, the ground can be a friend. But what I'm saying is rolling on a mat and rolling on broken concrete with glass and g-d knows what else is totally different. Again, the last place you want to be is on the ground. Would you want to be rolling around in a dark alley with a criminal who wants to kill you? What happens if he has a friend nearby and you're on the ground in a unforgiving position, with an old drug needle less than a foot away from your head? The ground, my friend, can be a very unpleasant place.

 

[mscroggins]

Don't overlook Rachel's big point - "There is no psychological association of failure with going to the ground." This is a great quote and, IMO, really points to some differences between Systema and other arts.

What happens if he has a friend nearby and you're on the ground in a unforgiving position

Much the same that happens if you are standing in an unforgiving position. You should avoid unforgiving positions, as it is your position and not your plane that gets you in trouble.

 

[seal]

If you'd rather fight a hooligan on the ground with his buddies staring down at you, be my guest. If you'd rather chance your life by rolling around on concrete with all sorts of dangerous materials within reach instead of increasing the odds by finding a way to stand back up and keep the life/death fight standing, be my guest. Ask a soldier what he thinks, facing death on a battlefield, with 60 pounds of gear.

 

[mscroggins]

If you'd rather fight a hooligan on the ground with his buddies staring down at you, be my guest. If you'd rather chance your life by rolling around on concrete with all sorts of dangerous materials within reach instead of increasing the odds by finding a way to stand back up and keep the life/death fight standing, be my guest. Ask a soldier what he thinks, facing death on a battlefield, with 60 pounds of gear.

You can pick a million situations to nitpick over that are nasty, ugly and brutal, but the difference here is in attitude, not in technical aspects.

Anyway, I always think it is best to just show up and train. Maybe you love it, or maybe you hate it, but its a big world with room for lots of opinions, so to each his own.

 

[doc D]

I believe the first question was in regard to what systems teach street practical ground fighting, so I shall address that.....I know this is a systema area, but ground fighting is an interest of mine

If you are looking for arts that have lots of ground fighting for the street rather than the ring, you might consider some of the Silat systems, especially the Hanafi lineage of Minangkabau Harimau. It is very combat/ street focused....very blade focused. The DeBordes method (he, Guru DeBordes, trained under Grandmaster Hanafi) is very practical for the street. He was presidential body guard in Ghana for a number of years.

I am former military....we train on concrete 99% of the time

I have only seen a little work on the ground by systema people , but it looked good. Some of what I saw reminded me of harimau.

There are several great Silat Harimau schools under Guru DeBordes in England.

With Respect,

Doc

 

[erich]

If you'd rather fight a hooligan on the ground with his buddies staring down at you, be my guest. If you'd rather chance your life by rolling around on concrete with all sorts of dangerous materials within reach instead of increasing the odds by finding a way to stand back up and keep the life/death fight standing, be my guest. Ask a soldier what he thinks, facing death on a battlefield, with 60 pounds of gear.

The systema point is that you should do whatever is most advantageous. Don't rule the ground out based on pre-conceived abstractions. You don't have to stay there and fight, you might just be transitioning or escaping.

Think of your soldier opting to roll over ground covered with broken glass rather than standing and getting ripped to shreds by a hail of shrapnel. Maybe the soldier bumps into and is engaged by an enemy combatant on the ground, maybe he gets up and runs for better cover, maybe he is hit in the leg and has no choice but to stay on the ground and deal with whatever comes.

On the subject of fighting from the ground imo systema is excellent. Significant time is spent learning to fight standing opponents from the ground and vice versa, often more than one, often armed, and never choreographed. I haven't seen this in any other style.