How far will PETA go?

[Baytor]

I have a couple of problems with PETA. They seem to care more about animals than people. Sure, bunnies are cute and all, but couldn't they spend some of that money feeding kids here in America that live below the poverty level (that's a subject for another thread though) ?

My biggest problem is that they send money to ultra extremist groups like the ALF/ELF. For those who may not know, the Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation Front are the largest terrorist groups in America, causing over 60 million dollars in damage. These are the fruitcakes who destroy research labs and spike trees. They claim that they don't hurt people at all, but they have left secondary explosive devices behind in labs they trashed at the U of M that were designed to kill first responders.

I'll try to find a link for documenting that.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I would consider myself to be pretty liberal, but this is one of the major disagreements that I often have with my political peers.

I hunt and I fish and I do it for fun.

In this country there are very few people who really need the meat they can gather with their own hands. I don't. In fact, its much easier to go to the store. Yet, when I kill, I take the meat home with me anyway. In a very real sense, this is wasteful of the animals that were commercially slaughtered for my consumption in the market. Yet, I kill anyway.

Why? Fun is part of it...

There is something special about killing and eating. There is something primal and something that I think that humans, in our current society have lost. I see so many people who really have no idea where there meat comes from. Most don't even want to know. Personally, when I kill, I feel like I am garnering an old pragmatic wisdom by participating in something that my species has evolved to do. With my weapons of death, I slip back in time and I become aware of myself in ways that I can't describe right now.

If you ever meet me (or my children, because I teach these skills to them) you will meet a gentle man who loves everything around him, but underneath that veneer, there is something primal and brutal - beautiful. There is blood and humanity.

Regarding the pain an animal feels...

This fall, I stood in my tree stand and took an easy shot at a four point buck. Something flicked in my eye, so I was slightly off. The arrow went into the animals guts and it ran off. The rest of the day, I tracked the deer by following its blood trail through the snow. It was starting to get late, so I called the wife on the cell and told her what was happening. She told me to quit and go back in the morning, but I thought I could hear the deer up ahead so I kept up my pursuit. I came upon the animal in a clearing. It had collapsed from blood loss and exhaustion. When it saw me, it struggled to its feet and attempted to run. I pulled my knife and gave chase. Weakened, the deer slipped and fell. I fell on it, grabbed it by the head and cut its throat. The deer grunted and was quiet. The forest was quiet. The snow was cold and the blood was warm. I think about that animals pain and its lasts moments and I know that it is not the only one to suffer. I am not the only one to cause such suffering. Do the wolves care when they take a moose in the snow and begin eating it while it is still alive? Why should I be different?

This brings me to the point Catch and Release fishing.

My cat had kittens last spring. During the summer, she would take the little ones outside. Then she would proceed to catch a bird or a rodent and wound it so it couldn't escape. The animal, still alive was brought back to the kittens so they could practice killing. They are very innefficiant and the animal's suffering must have been great. When the animal expired, they abandoned their play and went inside to get some food. Without that practice, how could they ever become better?

Are my children any different? I took my three year old daughter fishing last summer. We caught a whole bunch of sunfish and perch and I put them into a bucket. She was excited and happy and so was I. Experimenting, she took a stick and poked at the fish in the bucket. They swam out of the way easily. Then I drained some water out of the bucket and picked one up. I showed it to my daughter and then she proceeded to pick up a fish to show me. I know many adults, children, and entire families, where not a single person could do what she just did. The wriggly slimy thing, for some reason, has become dangerous and menacing. My daughter has not fear of such things.

My earliest memory (I was two and a half) is of picking up a live fish and handing it to my father. I remember how the fish filled my hands and dissappeared into my fathers. He was like a god at that moment....

upnorthkyosa

I read your post with trepidation, and actually felt sick to my stomach during the paragraph about the wounded deer.

Wait. This isn't what you think.

I am glad you had the insight to realize that the animal would be better off dead than wounded and suffering. I don't know many hunters - perhaps two or three - and they all think the way you do.

Personally, I can't stand it when I see an animal in pain.

I do not have the courage to kill an animal. I hope I never have to.

My husband and I spend a lot of time in Arizona. As many of you know, it's a beautiful place but getting very built up very rapidly. As a result, the desert wildlife have fewer places to live and some are becoming quite bold. We were playing golf and I hit the ball into 'the desert', as the out-of-bounds is referred to. My husband and the two men we were playing with were quite far ahead of me, so I walked over by myself to find the ball. After I hit it, I heard bushes rustling behind and beside me. I continued walking, as it could have been anything, including snakes, which we are warned not to try to deal with. I was walking along the edge of the fairway and still heard the noises behind and next to me, so I stopped and turned around. It was two coyotes, maybe ten feet away from me. I heard my husband and the other men yelling something, but then my experience resembled yours with the deer - it got very quiet and I was very aware of the two coyotes, one of which locked eyes with me. I wasn't afraid, just curious as to why the two were standing still and not charging me (I know -- what was I waiting for). I assumed a guarding stance and held my golf club in a way that I could use it as a weapon if I had to but not in a threatening manner. Wasn't the case. The coyote I locked eyes with seemed satisfied that I wasn't a threat, stuck its head out as if to say 'not this time' and the two of them took off back into the desert. I don't know if I could have hit it if it came to that. Glad I didn't have to make the choice. Funny thing was that I felt some sort of primal (to borrow your term) communication passing between me and the coyote, an understanding, if you will. That is probably what would prevent me from ever being a hunter.

I still think the PETAns go too far.

 

[Baytor]

Here's something peta would also hate. Whack a penguin (it likes it)!

http://www.birdcheck.co.uk/whackthepenguin.htm

 

[Baytor]

Ok, I found the article I was looking for. Here's the quote regarding Peta supporting ELF/ALF.

"ELF receives its funding through a number of sympathetic and allied organizations, as well as from wealthy and other benefactors. In addition, ELF has received support from elements of the animal rights movement, to which it is closely linked. In January 1995, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) reportedly gave a $45,200 contribution to the Rodney Coronado support committee. Coronado, an ELF activist, had been convicted of an arson attack against a research facility at Michigan State University. (The previous year PETA had given a $25,000 loan to Coronado’s father.) In August 1999, PETA gave a $2,000 contribution to David Wilson, the then-public spokesman for ALF and, in April 2001, PETA made a $1,500 contribution to the North American ELF to support their programs and activities. "


For those that would like to read the full article, it's here.
http://www1.umn.edu/dcs/earthliberationfront3pub.htm

Oh, and the reason that I goup the ALF/ELF togather is because they declared solidarity and support for each other in September of 1993.

 

[Deuce]

I just find the whole idea of peta's actions to be quite silly. If you don't believe in eating meat or killing fish, fine. Just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do. I support the idea of expressing your beliefs and decisions, but it shouldn't be to the extreme of being a major pain in the a** for those who disagree.

Sure, we're dealing with natures animals, and they should be respected. But we're also dealing with natures food chain and those who participate should also be respected.

I mean what's next? Let's go and wipe out all animals that are carnivorous or ones that fight and harm other animals?

I think that as humans, hunting is instictive, and that may be why some of us enjoy it. Much like sexual activity. It's natures way of improving our chances of survival as a species.

 

[Makalakumu]

I just find the whole idea of peta's actions to be quite silly. If you don't believe in eating meat or killing fish, fine. Just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do. I support the idea of expressing your beliefs and decisions, but it shouldn't be to the extreme of being a major pain in the a** for those who disagree.

In my opinion, there is an interesting reciprocity between the extreme interventions of a pro-life activist and a PETA activist. Both of them exhibit behaviors that are stunningly similar and their response to each other usually exhibit some form of "if you don't agree fine, just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do."

Imagine a world where people listen to each other...

 

[MA-Caver]

I mean what's next? Let's go and wipe out all animals that are carnivorous or ones that fight and harm other animals?

I think we already done that. Bears, wolves, cougars and the like. Don't see any running around town do you? But of course that was because they were a threat to US, people, not to their natural prey... weak and sick animals of which those aforementioned predators made no distinction. I mean a pack of wolves don't sit around before a hunt arguing over what to hunt next; "Aww man, we ate moose last week, lets go for deer."
Thankfully we didn't wipe them predators out...not totally. We just encroached upon their natural habitats so we could grow our crops of nice vegetables.

 

[The Prof]

In Florida we have these very huge roaches, up to two inches long. Each year there is a (get ready for this) "roach racing contest." A few years back, PETA made an appearance stating (on TV) that "roaches have right too." :erg:

Oh well, I guess we all have our little "pet" peaves don't we?

 

[kenpo tiger]

In my opinion, there is an interesting reciprocity between the extreme interventions of a pro-life activist and a PETA activist. Both of them exhibit behaviors that are stunningly similar and their response to each other usually exhibit some form of "if you don't agree fine, just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do."

Imagine a world where people listen to each other...

I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I think we already done that. Bears, wolves, cougars and the like. Don't see any running around town do you? But of course that was because they were a threat to US, people, not to their natural prey... weak and sick animals of which those aforementioned predators made no distinction. I mean a pack of wolves don't sit around before a hunt arguing over what to hunt next; "Aww man, we ate moose last week, lets go for deer."
Thankfully we didn't wipe them predators out...not totally. We just encroached upon their natural habitats so we could grow our crops of nice vegetables.

Okay - who're you dancing with? You can't post a pic like that w/o an explanation!!

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.

I'm not so sure about that. I bet its a good bet that a pro-lifer and a PETAn are on opposite ends of the political spectrum...which makes the simarities I pointed out above all the more interesting.

 

[Tgace]

Originally Posted by kenpo tiger
I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.

The problem I have with that concept is that they are placing human life on the same level as animal life. While I love my dog, If my house caught fire, Im going back in for my children...the dog can find his own way out.

BTW: HOLY **** thats a huge mountian lion!!

 

[Baytor]

I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.

Ok I want everyone to take note here. I'm gonna defend PETA by splitting hairs here.

While I disagree with a lot of the crap PETA does, I do agree with one of their primary philosophies, as I think we all can. That is this: Don't hurt animals. While I do occasionally hunt, and fish even less, when I do, I make sure that the animal is killed as quickly and cleanly as possible. While I think that some peta members are well intentioned, I also a lot of them are a bit on the loopy side. I think that these loopy ones are the ones calling the shots. While I think that they are goofy, I don't think that they really want people to get hurt. They do, however, support those who take more drastic action.

The organization that is more willing to hurt people and do damage is the Animal Liberation Front. Also, I think it is wrong to associate all pro lifers with the few crazies that are willing to kill. It is very interesting, though, how similar and different people can be at the same time isn't it?

Here's some good Peta for everyone.

 

[MA-Caver]

Okay - who're you dancing with? You can't post a pic like that w/o an explanation!!

I'm a gentleman... I don't kiss and tell. :supcool:

 

[Blindside]

Penn and Teller did a BS show on PETA. Some of the stuff that they revealed were amazing, like that PETA euthanizes animals.... Good show and funnier than heck, especially them walking around in all leather outfits and eating lots of gratuitous meat. They don't really pretend to be unbiased on this topic (or any other for that matter.)

Lamont

 

[kenpo tiger]

Of course there are extremists in most every group you will encounter in this world. But -- because of those few, the others are grouped into the *loopy* designation as well.

I have nothing against those who go hunting because, believe it or not, there are times where hunting could be justified for the sake of the animals. We have a deer population in the Northeast which has been growing disproportionately to the few areas of free space left for them to live. So what's the call here? Does *one* allow the deer to starve to death because there are too many and too few areas to feed, or does the municipality take measures and allow a controlled hunt to minimize the animals' suffering? Controversial, for sure.

My beef with PETA and ALF is that they have no business imposing their beliefs on others. but you knew I'd say that, didn't you? There will always be a market for furs and especially leathergoods as well as steakhouses galore. To walk up to a total stranger, throw blood or paint on their fur coat and rail at them about animal rights? You're getting nowhere in a hurry, except to alienate others to your cause.

PS - c'mon Ralph. We won't tell a soul...

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I take a little break, and miss these things....

I am not crazy about PETA. I used to like them - now, not very much at all. My reasons are different than others some have already listed. I don't care that they like animals - I'm all for it. I'm just dandy with them liking vegetarianism - anyone interested can pick up the old, but still useful and classic Diet for a Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappe for a introduction into why veggie diets can be more healthy, and more people eating veg. diets can be sustained with the same piece of earth.

The problem I have with PETA is the manner in which they (or supporters) have raided research labs. Have you ever seen lab animals - like rats - "freed"?

Anyways.

I would like to address something someone mentioned, I believe MACaver, I could be wrong.

Fish flesh *is* becoming more toxic - fish in the Atlantic in particular. Coal-burning plants across the Midwest affect the rain quality, and when the rain comes down in the East, Northeast, and in the ocean, there are high levels of toxins, including mercury, in the water.

So yes, fish flesh can be quite polluted. Canned tuna now is not recommended for small kids or pregnant women, because of the high mercury levels in it.

Farmed salmon is also high in PCB levels, whereas wild salmon does not have those high levels.

By all means, take your kids hunting and fishing, if it is an enjoyable family time. I would assume and hope everyone is also teaching their kids about the responsibilities of taking another life, even if it's "just" a fish or "just" for food.

Also, if you live near large factories or plants, especially coal mines or coal plants, please be careful of what you eat. The higher on the "food chain", the more concentrated the toxins typically are in an animal's flesh.

If you'd like to learn more about the toxins we as humans are carrying around, check out http://www.bodyburden.org/ .

For those of you worried that you are eating overfarmed or overharvested fish (i.e. more fishing = collapse of fisheries), check out

http://seafood.audubon.org/

where you can download a little pocket guide. It's a couple of years old now, I think, but still highly relevant. For your dining-out evenings, rather than your dining-in.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I have nothing against those who go hunting because, believe it or not, there are times where hunting could be justified for the sake of the animals. We have a deer population in the Northeast which has been growing disproportionately to the few areas of free space left for them to live. So what's the call here? Does *one* allow the deer to starve to death because there are too many and too few areas to feed, or does the municipality take measures and allow a controlled hunt to minimize the animals' suffering? Controversial, for sure.

- no, we reintroduce wolves. :wink2:

 

[The Prof]

Amen. I believe that you are right!

I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.

 

[Adept]

While I love my dog, If my house caught fire, Im going back in for my children...the dog can find his own way out.

Yeah, but if an armed assailant broke into your house and set it on fire as you knocked him out, would you run back in to get the dog or to drag out the criminal?

Or if you had to choose between your dog, and a convicted serial killer on death row?