How does your Kwoon/club/school aproach sparring in Wing Chun?

[brocklee]

Yeah the idea is that students can feel comfortable in any fighting range. If a wing chunner tries to close the gap with every opponent, he/she will find themselves one day strugglig, especially against someone who is good on their feet (karate guys, boxers etc). The idea is to be able to 'hold your own' until an opportunity presents itself

We don't want to train pro boxers, but give students confidence in every area, rather than leaving them trying to tan sao a roundhouse kick!!

I have started training intensley in other arts and it has really boosted my confidence. I am pleased to say that the wing chun is extremely effective against the other artists (even black belts). About 1 in 9 times I would get caught by a quick high kick or fast back punch, but generally the reactions of wing chun and strong structures came in handy

If anyone doubts their wing chun, my advice is to go out and try other arts. Most arts like boxing, karate, BJJ and TKD are extremely quick but you will see straight away how your skills fair
(and that was not meant as a reccomendation to go and challenge other schools or 'try it on' with their students, but go in humble and you will see where your wing chun works)

I don't understand how you can spar with another style and then compare them equally. For wing chun to be effective, you have to go at 100%. This is when you're utilizing it at its true speed. Sparing or love tapping doesn't work with us because if it were a street fight a single move could have more then one objective. It's either on or its not because we're a striking art. You stated something about tan sao'ing a roundhouse kick. Why would you do that when you can merely step in and close the gap. A good fighter CAN use a kick to get out of a close range situation but most fighters can't and wouldn't waste the energy or time to do so because there are easier options at that closer range.

I do agree, you should play around with people of other styles or arts. So that you may learn a more diverse range of opponents. I wouldn't call it sparring though because you are playing by their rules.

 

[tenth1]

just out of interest what is sparring to you brocklee, i understand some of what you are saying but would just like a clearer picture of your veiwpoint.

 

[brocklee]

just out of interest what is sparring to you brocklee, i understand some of what you are saying but would just like a clearer picture of your veiwpoint.

To me? Sparring is a lighter form of combat used to compare an individual's level of skill. Normally competitive sparring uses a point system and the objective isn't to beat the pulp out of the opponent. Points are rewarded for strikes or kicks to certain areas of the body and they're deducted for strikes or kicks to areas that are sensitive or a danger to the opponents overall health.

Its normally performed at 50% - 75% speed and power

 

[matsu]

Sparing or love tapping doesn't work with us because if it were a street fight a single move could have more then one objective. It's either on or its not because we're a striking art. You stated something about tan sao'ing a roundhouse kick. Why would you do that when you can merely step in and close the gap. A good fighter CAN use a kick to get out of a close range situation but most fighters can't and wouldn't waste the energy or time to do so because there are easier options at that closer range.

I do agree, you should play around with people of other styles or arts. So that you may learn a more diverse range of opponents. I wouldn't call it sparring though because you are playing by their rules.

i understand what you are saying, i think its always a good idea to explore techniques from other styles/systems and how we can use our techniques to their best use, it also helps us use them in real situations.
by forcing yourself to be confronted-(sparring at real speed but with only semi contact) yiu will learn and remember how to use those skills better.
surely our drills are sparring but just in an extreme controlled manner. perhaps it is ajust a case of mixing it up every so often.
just my tuppence
matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

Sparring takes various forms. Traditional sparring is difficult to do in wing chun. Sparring is about flowing and trying to work on movement, footwork, and finding targets

The nature of wing chun is that once you are in, you stay in and hack away with elbows, knife hand strikes etc

This kind of negates the usual form of sparring which is two guys standing off, gloving up and going at it with mutual kicks and punches

In Kamon, we call the practice of wing chun movements 'feeding techniques'. Whereby a person will come in with random attacks and we wrap them up and use wing chun movements

As soon as distance occurs (ie both students have a 'gap' between them)we have two options - close distance or spar at that range

If you spar at that range most techniques go out the window as 75% of wing chun is designed to fight medium to close range. That is why at Kamon we explore loose sparring at longer ranges so we are comfortable in that position

 

[brocklee]

Sparring takes various forms. Traditional sparring is difficult to do in wing chun. Sparring is about flowing and trying to work on movement, footwork, and finding targets

The nature of wing chun is that once you are in, you stay in and hack away with elbows, knife hand strikes etc

This kind of negates the usual form of sparring which is two guys standing off, gloving up and going at it with mutual kicks and punches

In Kamon, we call the practice of wing chun movements 'feeding techniques'. Whereby a person will come in with random attacks and we wrap them up and use wing chun movements

As soon as distance occurs (ie both students have a 'gap' between them)we have two options - close distance or spar at that range

If you spar at that range most techniques go out the window as 75% of wing chun is designed to fight medium to close range. That is why at Kamon we explore loose sparring at longer ranges so we are comfortable in that position

That make sense. Feeding drills is really what would be considered sparring in other worlds. That's what I call playing.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Exactly. Unfortunately with wing chun, you can't go at it full pelt. In boxing you can go as hard as you like either using bags or opponents. In wing chun its difficult to train like that, because even with a glove on, a full power knife hand to the throat will drop a guy. Same with elbows. You might get away with head gear and give it a go, but it is better training on wallbags, dummies or pads

So sparring using wing chun is kind of out

Also, Brocklee, I noted your earlier comment about tan sao'ing a kick - it was just an example
Stepping in and closing distance against a roundhouse is more difficult than you think - I thought that before I started training knockdown karate, and other styles are not as easy to defeat as a lot of chunners think. It is essential to have good defense against kicks and punches at long range whilst you are attempting to get closer to them

Watch the UFC - the BJJ guys have to stay at distance for a while while the kicks and strikes come at them. They then pick their moment to close the distance and thats that. If closing distance was easy, you would see all the BJJ guys in UFC doing that immediately

 

[brocklee]

Exactly. Unfortunately with wing chun, you can't go at it full pelt. In boxing you can go as hard as you like either using bags or opponents. In wing chun its difficult to train like that, because even with a glove on, a full power knife hand to the throat will drop a guy. Same with elbows. You might get away with head gear and give it a go, but it is better training on wallbags, dummies or pads

So sparring using wing chun is kind of out

Also, Brocklee, I noted your earlier comment about tan sao'ing a kick - it was just an example
Stepping in and closing distance against a roundhouse is more difficult than you think - I thought that before I started training knockdown karate, and other styles are not as easy to defeat as a lot of chunners think. It is essential to have good defense against kicks and punches at long range whilst you are attempting to get closer to them

Watch the UFC - the BJJ guys have to stay at distance for a while while the kicks and strikes come at them. They then pick their moment to close the distance and thats that. If closing distance was easy, you would see all the BJJ guys in UFC doing that immediately

I do watch UFC and can't compare it to a street fight because BJJ hurts when concrete and objects are involved. The reason there's a gap for so long is because it's a competition that needs to be thought out well because the outcome is to win by the rules. In a street fight, as a chunner, it should be more like....Realize a fight has actually been initiated, close the gap swiftly and throw the first punch. This removes the opponents possibility of a kick and puts the non chunner opponent in an uncomfortable position.

 

[matsu]

hee hee this is a great debate!
for me who has some competition experience in another style i now realise how effective wing chun could be "in the real world"
and i think that if "sparring" is done with an open mind and use as prep for the possibility that an opponnent knows what they are doing then its win:win for the student.
my sifu commbines traditional wing chun and rwl life situations to help you think about how it can be most effective..

matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

I do watch UFC and can't compare it to a street fight because BJJ hurts when concrete and objects are involved. The reason there's a gap for so long is because it's a competition that needs to be thought out well because the outcome is to win by the rules. In a street fight, as a chunner, it should be more like....Realize a fight has actually been initiated, close the gap swiftly and throw the first punch. This removes the opponents possibility of a kick and puts the non chunner opponent in an uncomfortable position.

In fights, distance can close very quickly, especially with a brawler. However, it can also stay at distance (which I found out to my cost). There are a lot of well trained boxers who will not let you close distance

Of course UFC is not exactly the same as a streetfight, but BJJ doesn't hurt on concrete. I've had a lot of fights involving grappling (which is my least favourite art) and have had no problem on hard surfaces

If you look at youtube and see how chunners do against long range arts, a lot of the time the chunner is preoccupied with closing and finds themself struggling

My whole point is that at times, closing distance is difficult and chunners can get caught at that range
Too many chunners think that it is easy to close the gap
Whilst I agree that in some fights space closes quickly, in many fights the reverse happens. I've also known people to 'push' their opponent away when they are in close

It is a lot easier to build up good sparring skills than it is to train yourself to be able to close the gap every time

 

[CuongNhuka]

I just want to make sure we're all on the same thought process here, correct me if I'm wrong:

Long range = kicking/some jab-cross
Medium range = punching
Short range = trapping/clinch

Along with ground and out of range.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think you've summarized it well although there are exceptions

You can trap people occasionally at medium-long range, by using their arm as a barrier against themselves

Punching can also be done at close range. If I'm grappling on the floor, I will use strikes as well

 

[brocklee]

I just want to make sure we're all on the same thought process here, correct me if I'm wrong:

Long range = kicking/some jab-cross
Medium range = punching
Short range = trapping/clinch

Along with ground and out of range.

Being a chunner I see it as:

Long range = walk 2 steps forward
Medium range = 1 step forward
Close range =

 

[CuongNhuka]

I think you've summarized it well although there are exceptions

You can trap people occasionally at medium-long range, by using their arm as a barrier against themselves

Punching can also be done at close range. If I'm grappling on the floor, I will use strikes as well

General idea was all I was really going for. Besides, Wing Chun teaches some kicks.

 

[mook jong man]

in sifu jim fungs school in sydney we had a couple of types of sparring that we did . they were chi sau sparring, hand sparring from the guard, and what was called random arms and legs where the wing chun guy defended against any style of attack oh also multiple opponents.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Sparring from the guard? Please, do go on!

 

[mook jong man]

to clarify i mean both guys standing in front of each other with their guards up just out of punching range using wing chun hand techniques no legs . they called it light hand sparring mainly using pak sau, latching and continnuous punching

 

[CuongNhuka]

What's the branch of Wing Chun?

 

[mook jong man]

sifu jim who passed away last year trained under sigung tsui seung tin

 

[CuongNhuka]

Interesting. Cuong Nhu includes a bit of Wing Chun, and we (used to) do "Cuong Nhu Chi Sao". Which is basicly two people go to Man Sao Wu Sao, and from there do Chi Sao. What you described seems similar... I'm curious if there's a connection (I'm not sure which linegeage of Wing Chun is in Cuong Nhu, so it seems very possible to me that O'Sensei Ngo Dong studied from the same line as Sifu Jim).

Is this line related to Yip Man?