How does training change at Blackbelt?

[SJON]

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that, in my opinion, Kukki TKD's biggest failing apart from the general lack of emphasis on hand technique is the lack of any substantial syllabus after 1st Dan. An obvious area for improvement would be to look deeper into things like pattern application and self-defence. For want of an "official" syllabus of this type, I spent many years and a lot of research and effort developing my own.

With kind permission from the Mods, here is an example of the kind of thing I mean:

That's me in the pirate headband and the ballet slippers. Excellent fashion sense, I'm sure you'll agree.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[skribs]

I'm going to reply to this thread as an armchair expert (read: I like to read blurbs on the internet and I'm currently 9th keub). Look at a technique like the front kick. A master doing the front kick is going to do it really, really well because he's practiced it probably tens of millions of times over the course of a couple decades. If he had techniques that he'd learned at 4th or 5th Dan, he probably isn't going to be nearly as good at those as he is at the basic techniques he learned as a colored belt, because he isn't nearly as practiced. Granted, he probably is going to be better at these new techniques than a colored belt is at the front kick, but he won't have the level of fine-tuning practice and muscle memory that he does with the simple front kick.

In my school, one big difference (actually at high red to start preparing you for black belt) is that the black belts are expected to be leaders. As you go up the keub ranks, you learn the techniques, but you also have the forms and one-step sparring defensive drills (both grappling and striking). Most people tend to forget the earlier drills as they advance (they're encouraged to remember them and practice at home, but most people forget stuff after they take a test on it, just like in school), but as you go up in Dan ranks you're expected to know all of the forms and drills in order to help train the newer students.

I think part of the problem is that once you understand the basic techniques and basic mechanics of the art, there isn't a whole lot more that you can "learn". You learn new forms and combinations and constantly work on fine-tuning your techniques and muscle memory. A curriculum at that point would seem rather arbitrary, because each individual might need to work on different things. A lot of us ask the "why" questions now, and I think as we continue to grow as artists we start thinking more outside the box.

I think the black belt is an arbitrary line in this slow growth of a student. It's kind of like a birthday. With a few exceptions, nothing really changes from the day before your birthday until the day after. You only aged 2 days during that time, but you can now say you're a year older. I think the Black Belt is kind of the same. There's not a huge difference between 1st keub and 1st dan, but it marks that you've at least achieved a certain level of proficiency. If that makes sense.

 

[K-man]

I'm going to reply to this thread as an armchair expert (read: I like to read blurbs on the internet and I'm currently 9th keub). Look at a technique like the front kick. A master doing the front kick is going to do it really, really well because he's practiced it probably tens of millions of times over the course of a couple decades. If he had techniques that he'd learned at 4th or 5th Dan, he probably isn't going to be nearly as good at those as he is at the basic techniques he learned as a colored belt, because he isn't nearly as practiced. Granted, he probably is going to be better at these new techniques than a colored belt is at the front kick, but he won't have the level of fine-tuning practice and muscle memory that he does with the simple front kick.

The body can only be struck, kicked or twisted in a finite number of ways. You don't learn new techniques at 4th or 5th dan, you know them all way before black belt. What you do learn after black belt, hopefully, is how to make them work more effectively.
:asian:

 

[SJON]

I agree. But for that to work, you need to be shown the effective techniques before BB, not just "the motions".

To clarify, I would ideally teach this stuff (as in the videoclip) from white belt, suitably structured per grade.

But reality dictates that a lot of students who come to me are high coloured belts and BB's who have only ever been exposed to kicking and performance art patterns, and so this becomes their "black belt syllabus".

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that, in my opinion, Kukki TKD's biggest failing apart from the general lack of emphasis on hand technique is the lack of any substantial syllabus after 1st Dan. An obvious area for improvement would be to look deeper into things like pattern application and self-defence.
Simon

There are those in KKW-TKD though Simon that would fight you tooth and nail to prevent either pattern applications (as you demonstrate) and/or self defense applications. To an extent though I can understand the rationale behind that position. KKW-TKD is not centered on self-defense and could really be considered the anti-thesis of self defense. That isn't meant as a slight towards KKW-TKD, simply observing that it is a sport. So those in this branch of TKD would have to learn or perhaps re-learn certain aspects of the art. This would take time to gain proficiency. And it probably would not sell as well as the sport side, particularly to children which is the bread and butter for many/most KKW-TKD (and other) schools. Certainly Itosu Sensei understood that you cannot teach 'adult' karate to children as it would not be the responsible thing to do until they had matured to the point of understanding the full weight of the training and possible implications of it's use.

I think that in some schools, if done properly, an adult version of KKW-TKD that emphasizes self defense applications, alternate forms applications would be great IF the instructor(s) truly understood both. But as it is, KKW-TKD fills a niche that some people want and that is fine. That doesn't mean that other brands of TKD, or even a KKW-TKD school that is willing to branch out need to remain locked into a strictly sport model. Again, that is the richness of TKD or any 'brand' of karate.

 

[SJON]

I think you're right, David, and I too think that's fine; it has its place in the general scheme of things.

My approach stems from research I started for my own benefit, i.e. because I was dissatisfied with what I came to realise KK-TKD is or has become and I was too stubborn to give up the years of training I'd already invested and go off and do HKD or JJ or something. Also, I was aware of the historical (I mean post-WWII) nature of TKD/TSD/KSD as a strong fighting/SD art, and recognised the potential of the existing material, if not the way it is conventionally approached.

So I developed (and continue to do so) this syllabus which is probably about 75% built around non-pattern-related striking and defensive skills and strategies, i.e. the effective application of basic percussive hand technique for SD, not the joint-locking and throwing aspect most people associate hosinsul with. Apart from that, there's the pattern application stuff, which is what people tend to associate with me and is essentially the "plan B" material dealing with what to do if you're grabbed or clinched, and how to use takedowns.

The key thing is that I have no intention of saying that anyone is wrong, that their TKD is not "real" or of value. I recognise, as you've described, David, that KK-TKD's function and focus is chiefly a sporting and educational one, and that's fine with me. So what I teach is an option that people can take on or ignore as they wish as an addition to their TKD. In fact, I only have a very few students who train "my" methodology centred on hand technique and SD full-time. The rest of the people I teach are regular TKD people who I do special sessions or workshops for on a weekly or monthly basis.

So, what you see in the video (there are a couple more on the Youtube channel) is an example of one aspect of the "plan B" material that is part of my syllabus. It's stuff people can incorporate as an alternative to their HKD-style hosinsul practice (not that there is even much of that taught any more, from what I can observe), with the advantage of not having to learn a whole new set of techniques because they already know the movements from the patterns.

Best regards,

Simon

 

[andyjeffries]

If it were an isolated situation I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, unfortunately, it isn't. I know an 7th Dan in G.B. as well and have talked with him many times over the years. His experience was the same. My own instructor who is a KKW master (now retired) has related the same feelings.

I'd be interested to know the name of the 7th Dan in GB that feels that way, but I understand if you'd rather not say...

Okay, I'm glad your getting some continuing education. And don't take this the wrong way as it isn't meant that way, but after 30 years of training it took a trip to Korea to learn little tweaks?

No, sorry, I guess I didn't explain that very well... I've been getting tweaks all along the journey, but I was just expressing that even after nearly 30 years of learning, I went on a trip and still learnt loads of new things. Therefore I was trying to explain that it hasn't been 3-5 years of training and repeating for 25 years, that I feel I'm still learning now and used the example of me going to Korea as an example of a trip I went on and learnt a load in one trip.

Whenever my Grandmaster visits I learn a load too, the same as any time I train in other dojangs or visiting instructors teach my class.

And after 30 years of training, you weren't getting power generation correct? It shouldn't have taken a trip to Korea to learn/correct these things. And too be honest, that is colored belt material, at least in the schools I've trained. I'm not suggesting that a 5th Dan with 30 years should 'know' everything or that there isn't stuff we can always improve on here and there. But by 30 years in and 5th Dan one should not need a trip to Korea to tweak anything.

Don't get me wrong, I was generating power before and hadn't been corrected, but it was a subtle difference that really helped with the feel of the movements and how power is generated.

And really - "30 years in and 5th Dan one should not need a trip to Korea to tweak anything"? If you agree that there's always stuff to improve on and that there are a great number of high ranking seniors in Korea (whereas in my country we only have one 9th Dan for example and maybe a handful of 8th Dans), why be so dismissive of going to Korea?

The following 'you' is a generic 'you'.

OK...

As a 5th Dan (or anyone that has a BB in Kukki-TKD), what NEW material have you learned that wasn't already known at a lower colored belt? I don't mean gaining expertise at something. I don't mean a tweak here and there. And I certainly don't mean learning yet another form with b/p/k movements that were learned at yellow belt (i.e. the form is only increased in length and subjectively speaking, increased technical difficulty but still has the same punches and blocks and kicks that were learned early on in training). Did you learn new ways to strike as a BB? New blocks after BB? Did you learn a new throw or lock or something? What was the new concept that you didn't know existed as a yellow or green or brown belt?

I would say the things learnt post-1st dan level are definitely more tweaks. However, there are definitely new strikes, blocks, locks, throws. There are concepts that may have been mentioned at kup ranks, but were only solidified, sunk in or only made sense post-1st dan.

 

[Gnarlie]

My experience reflects that of Master Jeffries. I have learned a lot of new stuff since 1st Dan, throws, locks, holds, chokes, strangles, vital and pressure point striking, falling, rolling, demonstration techniques, acrobatics, weapon work. The cultural, behavioural and philosophical aspects have become much more of a feature.

I know other students of Taekwondo who have had less positive experiences too. I guess it depends on where and with whom you learn.

Gnarlie

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'd be interested to know the name of the 7th Dan in GB that feels that way, but I understand if you'd rather not say...

I'll give you a shout on PM Andy

 

[EddieCyrax]

My reply is a little off-topic, but kinda-sorta touches on it, and your post brings it to mind. In the past we've often discussed going away from a multi-level Dan system. In place of it, use a training log system. For example, someone could say they've been a BB for 20 years. Okay, but what does that mean really? Does it mean they've consistently trained for the last 20 years? Or does it mean they became a BB 20 years ago but haven't trained three minutes since? This is where logged training hours come into play.

Let's make up some numbers just for discussion. Let's say it takes 500 hours to become a BB (as well as successfully passing a test). How one arrives at the required 500 hours depends on a couple of factors (the structure of the school and availability of classes and the seriousness of the student). Once the student reaches the 500 hours (or whatever the actual requirement may be), and they successfully pass a test they become a BB. They again log their training hours after this point. In this way, you can differentiate between a 20 year BB that has 6000 logged hours and one that has 501 hours in the same 20 year period.

Now one could also do the same with belt levels as well. Which brings us back to the point of what, if anything, is learned for each Dan level?

Now to be clear, I'm not saying it is wrong for an art to not have 'new' material after the first Dan and having 'experience' count for promotions. Just as it isn't wrong for an art to have new material for a Dan to learn at each level. As long as the art is clear on the point and the student is satisfied with whatever the requirements are to be promoted.

I agree in theory here. My one concern is not everyone's training is equal in time/intensity/production. Not sure logging time is aways the best measure of skill anymore than number of years served.

 

[Archtkd]

That fortunately doesn't speak for all of TKD. There are many TKD schools and organizations that put 'meat and potatoes' into the training, both before and after BB. And to be clear, learning yet another block/punch/kick form isn't what I'm referring to as meat and potatoes education.

Based on my personal experience that statement could speak for many Kukkiwon style taekwondo dojangs in St. Louis, around the U.s and the world as a whole.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I agree in theory here. My one concern is not everyone's training is equal in time/intensity/production. Not sure logging time is aways the best measure of skill anymore than number of years served.

It certainly isn't perfect, and like anything it can be abused. Boil away the fluff and feathers and a black belt (as I've said for years) is a personal thing and really can't be compared to another. Perhaps not even in the same school, organization or system. Really, how would you compare a TKD BB that took one year to one that took six years? Is the one-year TKD BB a sponge and really good while the six-year BB took a long time to 'get it'....or is the one-year TKD BB in a McDojang and the six-year TKD BB in a hard core school that has a LOT of meat to the training?

Answer is that it can go either way. Bottom line is what happens either in the ring in a competition for sport TKD or in the street against a real bad guy for SD TKD. That speaks far more than the color of the cloth.

 

[skribs]

The body can only be struck, kicked or twisted in a finite number of ways. You don't learn new techniques at 4th or 5th dan, you know them all way before black belt. What you do learn after black belt, hopefully, is how to make them work more effectively.

While this is true, I think the grappling side is much more complex. There are only so many hand/arm strikes and only so many effective kicks (not including those that have you just spin around more whilst in the air), but there are different ways you can manipulate each joint from any position. Having done wrestling and looked at manuals for judo/bjj, I feel the grappling side is much more complex, and since it is more of a minor part of the curriculum, I can see learning more and more of these techniques.

 

[msmitht]

While this is true, I think the grappling side is much more complex. There are only so many hand/arm strikes and only so many effective kicks (not including those that have you just spin around more whilst in the air), but there are different ways you can manipulate each joint from any position. Having done wrestling and looked at manuals for judo/bjj, I feel the grappling side is much more complex, and since it is more of a minor part of the curriculum, I can see learning more and more of these techniques.

My bjj instructor, a 6th degree, just showed me a new sweep he learned last month. He got his black belt in 1988. Lots to learn for me

 

[Earl Weiss]

The other night in class I told the BBS something I did when doing line drills. This was to vary the technique within the parameters of the drill particularly with the cadence of multiple / consecutive (More than one with same leg) kicks. For instance if the drill was Hook / Turning (Roundhouse) / Side, The cadence of repetitions could be varied 1-2-3, 1,2-3, 1-2,3,1,2,3 with ","representing no pause, and "-" representing slight pause. This avoids falling into a rut and being able to vary timing to throw off the opponent.

 

[MiaPhins]

New here, didn't want to start a new thread for this question. I did Tae Kwon Do for years and got my black belt as a kid. I stopped in High School and now am thinking about going back. I assume I would go right back in as a black belt?

 

[TKDTony2179]

New here, didn't want to start a new thread for this question. I did Tae Kwon Do for years and got my black belt as a kid. I stopped in High School and now am thinking about going back. I assume I would go right back in as a black belt?

Depends on the teacher or you. If you are going under a new teacher then his curriculum cold be a whole lot different from your old instructor.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I feel like if you want more you must do more. I did feel like after reaching 1st degree that learning new forms and a few new kicks like twist kick and axe kick was all I needed and once I hit 3rd I would be good to go. Well now that I am third I will now say no. We have always focused on the striking abilities of TKD and very little on the cqc part of TKD or the little clinch work that TKD had to offer.

So now that I am at the rank of 3rd I am focusing on just that. The cqc skills and true understand of hyungs of the chang hon patterns. It is hard to find people that will work with you so you can obtain a higher skill set but I do what I can.

 

[Dirty Dog]

New here, didn't want to start a new thread for this question. I did Tae Kwon Do for years and got my black belt as a kid. I stopped in High School and now am thinking about going back. I assume I would go right back in as a black belt?

Depends. There are lots of different TKD systems, so the curriculum might well be radically different. How long you've been out is also a factor. If you've been out a year, kept up on your skills on your own, and are returning to the same general system, then probably. If you've been out for years, haven't practiced, don't remember the forms and are joining a school with a different curriculum (or even the same, since you don't remember it) then why would you expect (or want) to wear a belt you don't deserve?

Better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There are only so many hand/arm strikes and only so many effective kicks (not including those that have you just spin around more whilst in the air), but there are different ways you can manipulate each joint from any position.

There are a finite number of kicks and strikes but there are magnitudes larger number of combinations.