How do some instructors claim their lineage?

[HandsOfStone]

How is the lineage of an instructor/student determined? For example, lets say you have an opportunity to train at a school owned by a famous teacher. Let's call him "Bob". You go and visit the school, and find out that Bob only teaches twice a week, and even then only to advanced students.

So you start taking classes, and the bulk of your training (beginning to intermediate stages) is done with one of Bob's assistants. You stick it out and after several years, you're finally training with Bob himself. Eventually, you decide that you want to open your own school. Bob gives you his blessing and wishes you the best of luck.

Now, do you claim that you're a student of Bob, even though the majority of your training wasn't with Bob himself, but one of his assistants? If so, how many people are teaching today and claiming to be a former student of "Bob" (in every style of martial art) yet they hardly ever trained with him? :bs:

And wouldn't that mean there is no pure lineage in any form of martial art? Not to cause any debate over specific styles, because I personally enjoy all forms of martial art. Still, this type of thing must have taken place in the past as well. For example, Mas Oyama, Yip Man, Jigoro Kano, Morihei Ueshiba, etc. must have had assistants doing the bulk of teaching.
:idunno:

 

[ginshun]

Who certifies that you are of the level you claim to be? Did Bob give you your 5th Dan (just a number thrown out for example)or did one of his assistants? If it is Bob that is certifing you, then I don't have any problem with you claiming to be his student. Even if one of his assistants trained you for white through whatever belt.


I am not sure that I said that very well, but whatever.

 

[TigerFist]

How is the lineage of an instructor/student determined? For example, lets say you have an opportunity to train at a school owned by a famous teacher. Let's call him "Bob". You go and visit the school, and find out that Bob only teaches twice a week, and even then only to advanced students.

So you start taking classes, and the bulk of your training (beginning to intermediate stages) is done with one of Bob's assistants. You stick it out and after several years, you're finally training with Bob himself. Eventually, you decide that you want to open your own school. Bob gives you his blessing and wishes you the best of luck.

Now, do you claim that you're a student of Bob, even though the majority of your training wasn't with Bob himself, but one of his assistants? If so, how many people are teaching today and claiming to be a former student of "Bob" (in every style of martial art) yet they hardly ever trained with him? :bs:

And wouldn't that mean there is no pure lineage in any form of martial art? Not to cause any debate over specific styles, because I personally enjoy all forms of martial art. Still, this type of thing must have taken place in the past as well. For example, Mas Oyama, Yip Man, Jigoro Kano, Morihei Ueshiba, etc. must have had assistants doing the bulk of teaching.
:idunno:

Unfortunately, this has taken place for years. You have big name instructors, who in many cases were themselves taught by assistant instructors, etc. That's how many martial art styles have become watered down over the years. There are no "pure" lineages, because any time you have an assistant teaching for you, that person is going to add his own ideas and way of training to the mix. Not that it's a bad thing, but there is no real pure lineage because of that. And of course there is the Name factor..."I was taught by Bob" will get a lot more students than "I was taught by Bob's assistant".

 

[Jeff Boler]

You make the lineage up of course.

Look at Rod Sacharnoski and Dai Yoshin Ryu. When he first started talking about this art, he claimed that he received the art from Albert C. Church. However, several years later, he had a falling out with Church, and stated in a letter written to Black Belt Magazine, that he was never a student of Church, just a business partner. At that time, he claimed that he was a direct student of Chijiro Yakota, and he learned the art from him while he was in the military. Later on, he claimed that the system of Dai Yoshin Ryu died out, and he created his own version of it. Now.....he has removed the name of the system from his art(s), and claims everything is Juko Ryu.

Bottomline....Dai Yoshin Ryu never existed to begin with. It was a figment of his imagination. Yet....his followers still stay with him.

 

[Ceicei]

So you start taking classes, and the bulk of your training (beginning to intermediate stages) is done with one of Bob's assistants. You stick it out and after several years, you're finally training with Bob himself. Eventually, you decide that you want to open your own school. Bob gives you his blessing and wishes you the best of luck.

Well, the student (I) did get to advanced student stage and did get to be taught by Bob himself for a while (per first post, Bob teaches advanced students only). So, yes, I can claim I was taught by Bob and can claim him in my lineage. Maybe not as long as with Bob's assistant, but there was a time period I was a direct student of Bob's.

His assistant established the basics with me through the years from white to intermediate level and Bob finished his work by preparing me at advanced level to become skilled/qualified enough (probably training me to reach a couple of dans by then) to set up and run a school. There is no pretense here regarding lineage.

This is not the same as going to the seminar. This is not the same as a temporary student trying out a school for a couple of weeks. This is a bonafide training as a personal student of Bob's, for weeks, months, and perhaps a few years through advanced training.

Maybe you need to change the scenario a bit if your point is to make that some students are not true students of a "famous instructor" because they don't train directly with him/her. Perhaps your scenario should have said, "trained at the famous instructor's school, seeing him only at promotions, seminars, special events, perhaps a few private lessons here and there. The trainings were only with his assistants. You trained with various assistants throughout the years. The assistants were taught by Bob." Under this scenario, I think that you really can't get away with saying I am a student of Bob's." You could say "I trained at Bob's school." For the purpose of lineage though, it is through the school and Bob's style that you got the training.

Under the first scenario in my post as I've explained it, I would say ME > Bob. With the second scenario in this post, I would probably state my lineage as ME > main assistant instructor > Bob.

- Ceicei

 

[John Bishop]

Well "Bob" can't be everywhere at the same time. If he's got more then one school, or several classes a day at one school, he probably can't teach all of them. But if he's the one who promotes you because you've tested in front of him, and meet his standards, then your lineage goes through him.
This is not bad, since most head instructors have assistant instructors. And it's also a learning experience for the student to be an assistant instructor.
But, you do want to avoid the type of head instructor who very seldom teaches, and only shows up for the sales pitch, and to collect money at the tests.

 

[The Kai]

And if Bob promotes you to higher ranks (such as 2nd black and up) there should be more interaction at this point. After all Bob does'nt have the time to work with the 100's of white belts, however if you stick around long enough you should be seeing more of bob. Not to mention you are being taught by Neo Bobs who should, while maybe a little off, should be starting you down the path

 

[rmcpeek]

Who teaches or taught "Bob's" assistants? At some point they had to learn as well. If the assistants learned from "Bob" and are teaching the curriculum approved and taught by "Bob" then technically you are learning from "Bob". Provided of course that he keeps track and ensures his assistants are teaching exactly as he has trained them.

If you are trained and tested and subsequently promoted by "Bob", once you've gotten to advanced status, then you should declare that you are "Bob's" student and have his lineage proudly.

 

[tshadowchaser]

There are no "pure" lineages,

I'll disagree with that having learned directly from the founder of Sikaran And his top instructor for 30 years of training. So I see my lineage in the system of Sikaran pure. I also know enough Pai lum people who trained directly under Dr. Daniel K. Pai and they most certainly are direct and pure lineage. So I think the above statement is a little to generalized.





Now as for learning under Bob's assistants, if at the time one reached a level where Bob started teaching the person and continued to do so for a few years or more and then BOB issued the certificate of rank , then yes you are BOB's student but should also qualify and say that you where also a student of MR x also.



I agree with those that say if Bob has a LARGE school or schools he may not teach each class and/or only teach the advance classes. Until you get to that advance class and are promoted in it you are not BOb's student but you are a student of his system.

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,


I am a proud student of a student of Bob... I ....am also a student of BoB!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[eyebeams]

If you got your rank from Bob's school, Bob feels you can start your own and Bob backs your rank, then you are part of Bob's lineage.