How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

[drop bear]

my training does not consist of drills. When I switched from Japanese to Okinawan karate I threw all the drills out as they were all oriented towards winning points in tournaments.


I had your sort of sparring for 20 years and it does nothing for me. We are on two different planets. You haven't the first idea of what I am discussing because your training is rooted in competition. If you had of looked for the guys I mentioned for you to check out you may have got a glimpse of what I am talking about.

So this appears to me to be choreography.

And once again you are making assumptions about something you have obviously never experienced and do not understand. Our training can be as fast as you like but when it is fast it is over before it can progress. So we may practise small segments full speed but to progress the whole bunkai it needs to be slower to give your partner a chance to react. The more experienced your partner, the faster you can go. The beauty of the training is you do not have to hit your partner hard.
:asian:

I have looked at every video you have posted and seen mostly unresisted drills. Some were fast but still unresisted. I am an advocate of resisted training.

From what you have posted all your training looks like drills. Of one shade or another. That is neither a new or secret concept. I do drills that's are choreographed and ones that approximate a fight. And then progress from that to sparring which is another approximation and so on.

No training is the same as fighting. No training is done without rules and safety measures. That is the reality of good training.

What I don't understand is you have this system that is faster and more effective. That is crucial to winning fights and that is sold and readily available to anyone who wants to take the time out to do it and you then think nobody else is adopting these concepts. That I don't understand them just because I don't agree with them.


I would not put someone in a competition if they had not sparred they would be under prepared and get hurt. A competition is safer than an attack so I could not envisage preparing somone for an attack without sparring.

I would just not be giving them the best chance.

Now your system should be easily provable because it would dominate in competition. Considering you are trained for the much more serious nature of the street. The safety and ineffectiveness of sports martial arts should be easy to take on.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I would not put someone in a competition if they had not sparred they would be under prepared and get hurt.

This was directed at K-man, but I'd like to offer my thoughts. I agree. For competition you need sports training.

A competition is safer than an attack so I could not envisage preparing somone for an attack without sparring.

And this is the crux of the issue. Hopefully my above posts will help you to see the differences in the training methodology.

Now your system should be easily provable because it would dominate in competition. Considering you are trained for the much more serious nature of the street. The safety and ineffectiveness of sports martial arts should be easy to take on.

Well, it would dominate the sport arena until I was DQ'd. As an example, you adhere to your rule set..but I don't. You have your gloves and cup and mouth piece...I don't. What I do have is my Glock 19 and at least two edged weapons on my person. I would have no hesitation to grab the ref and throw him into you. Or strike to an area that probably isn't permitted by the rule set you are forced to adhere to. And I wouldn't necessarily met you on the mat, rather the fight would occur in the parking lot between two parked cars or I would attack you from behind on the way to the mat using a chair or brick.

I'm not being funny here and hopefully you'll understand we're I'm going with this. These are two different animals and like oil and water you can't mix them.

 

[drop bear]

After reading your comment above I took a look at your profile and I think I understand the issue. It says you train MMA. Now there is nothing wrong with that, but if this is correct, it explains why we're not on the same sheet of music so-to-speak. We're really talking about apples and oranges.

To begin, MMA uses a sport training methodology. To be clear, nothing wrong with that if the focus remains on sport and competition. So please don't confuse anything I say as a put-down towards MMA. As such, a sport training methodology is not sufficient for self defense training and in truth is extremely detrimental. I'll say this again to emphasis the point, it is detrimental to the training. Let me requote a post I did quite some time ago on this (and other) boards that was well received and cuts to the heart of the discussion:



So you need to ask yourself the question of where your sparring fits into the above commentary. If your sparring subscribes to a certain rule-set then it is sport and not sufficient for self defense. If your sparring is one-on-one in a weaponless environment and does not allow for verbal judo, escape & evasion, improvised weapons, use of barriers and/or cover and concealment etc then it is sport and detrimental to developing good self defense skills. Sparring does not have the randomness of a scenario because a scenario is not limited in any way, shape or form and can utilize any and all locations, environmental stimulus, duress (that can't be obtained during sparring), sensory overload, OODA, applicable self defense laws etc.

Again, not putting down MMA and/or sport training at all, it's just a different animal with a different training perspective and methodology to achieve a specific goal. You mentioned Gracie:



I know Royce. He use to train L.E. personnel at SEPSI which is a regional training center. He began with the traditional sport-oriented BJJ style training and quickly discovered it sucks for what a high liability professional needs in the real world. He had to make extreme changes to what and how he teaches in order for Deputies/Officers to continue to come to his course. And it was still questionable (that is putting it nicely). That isn't a slap on Royce. It's just that what he offered worked in one environment and not in another. As a result I haven't seen him teach there in years now.



This doesn't make it a good idea. I've trained under (and became an Instructor) Ken Good who was Seal Team Six. No boxing at all and was more oriented towards Aikijujutsu (along with Sonny Puzikas and Systema). I can assure you that the preponderance of their training is scenario based (I know as I commanded SOG Team Six and that's what we did).



If this is true then I truly feel for them. If it is rear naked chokes and kamoras and cross body mounts and triangle locks etc then they are going to be putting themselves in danger before the altercation even starts. We messed with this back in the 90's when it was the flavor of the month. I died out quickly fortunately before anyone got hurt. Now we use SPEAR, PCR, Boatman and Israeli training (of which I'm an instructor in each system). It has done extremely well for us (we're the fifth largest agency in the state). And it has, along with our traditional self-defense related Karate training been in good stead with my students (the bulk of which are high liability professionals).

What you miss is the focus on better basics. Sparring allows for mastery of a core set of principles that are then infinitley adaptable. Sparring occurs at all ranges of combat. In all sorts of different environments. The adaptability is what makes these ideas so effective.

Control of these core principles is what creates the opportunities for the submissions and the knockouts. It is the same core principles that allow for the use of all the rule breaking moves.

Instead of constantly trying to create a skill set of moves for every variable and then trying to filter through them. You train basic ideas and are forced to problem solve. Sparring is an exercise in problem solving.

Ultimately the defence against a punch is exactly the same as an eye gouge a throat punch a judo chop. It does not matter what rule breaking move is used the principles behind that move remain constant.

Sparring may not teach a person to hit knees or throats but it teaches the ability to hit a target which is the the point. If you haven't started by getting that right then you are in trouble.

So instead of learning to fight 8 guys with weapons in a flash Gordon style death ring I focus on being able to handle one guy. Because unless that is done the rest cannot be accomplished.

Weapons are not covered in mma de escalation is not covered. Awareness ambush counter ambush. And you would need to go to an expert in those fields to complete your skill set if that is what you want to do.

But for the bare mechanics of forcefully dominating another person the sports fighters are the experts. And sparring is a vital tool.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would dare to say that most of the benefits of sparring are mental rather than physical, in that they force the student to keep their head under pressure and must make their techniques work against an actively resisting opponent.

That still doesn't make sparring (as the term is most often used) the equivalent of a realistic self defence scenario, nor does that make it the only way to achieve these sorts of benefits.

 

[drop bear]

This was directed at K-man, but I'd like to offer my thoughts. I agree. For competition you need sports training.



And this is the crux of the issue. Hopefully my above posts will help you to see the differences in the training methodology.



Well, it would dominate the sport arena until I was DQ'd. As an example, you adhere to your rule set..but I don't. You have your gloves and cup and mouth piece...I don't. What I do have is my Glock 19 and at least two edged weapons on my person. I would have no hesitation to grab the ref and throw him into you. Or strike to an area that probably isn't permitted by the rule set you are forced to adhere to. And I wouldn't necessarily met you on the mat, rather the fight would occur in the parking lot between two parked cars or I would attack you from behind on the way to the mat using a chair or brick.

I'm not being funny here and hopefully you'll understand we're I'm going with this. These are two different animals and like oil and water you can't mix them.

Why do I adhere to a rule set. You take somone on in a parking lot they are hardly expected to fight fair.

 

[drop bear]

I would dare to say that most of the benefits of sparring are mental rather than physical, in that they force the student to keep their head under pressure and must make their techniques work against an actively resisting opponent.

That still doesn't make sparring (as the term is most often used) the equivalent of a realistic self defence scenario, not does that make it the only way to achieve these sorts of benefits.

Getting the basic mechanics of making attacks work and resisting their attacks needs resisted training. The other guy will be fighting back. I think that has to be experienced in the gym before you try it out for real.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Getting the basic mechanics of making attacks work and resisting their attacks needs resisted training. The other guy will be fighting back. I think that has to be experienced in the gym before you try it out for real.

Sure. Though your statement is not specific to sparring (as the term is most often used) or to other training methods, as mentioned by others in the conversation.

Having had to defend myself using techniques learned in an art that has sparring, I came out okay on more than one occasion and can say first hand that outside of schoolyard scraps (you know; meet me on the playground/out back/wherever and we'll get it on), no self defence scenario that I have ever been in that also involved a physical component ever resembled sparring in the usual sense of the word.

 

[drop bear]

The other thing people miss is that the gym is a real place not some sterile environment. For most places I have trained there are walls I have to avoid bits of hard floor and other people moving and banging around. There are improvised weapons people team up on others. People are ambushed.

This is all part of life clashing with this pure training that everybody thinks is a detriment.

 

[drop bear]

Sure. Though your statement is not specific to sparring (as the term is most often used) or to other training methods, as mentioned by others in the conversation.

Having had to defend myself using techniques learned in an art that has sparring, I came out okay on more than one occasion and can say first hand that outside of schoolyard scraps (you know; meet me on the playground/out back/wherever and we'll get it on), no self defence scenario that I have ever been in that also involved a physical component ever resembled sparring in the usual sense of the word.

All of mine have. But I am not naturally agressive. And mma is more in line with how fighting looks anyway.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Sparring occurs at all ranges of combat. In all sorts of different environments.

Hmmm, so your telling me your sparring takes place;

• Inside of a car?
• In an elevator?
• On stair?
• In an alley?
• On a bed?
• In a doorway?
• On a slopping and/or wet surface?
• On asphalt?
• In dim light?
• By complete surprise?
• With multiple attackers?
• With weapons (standard or improvised)?

So you're telling me that you have the option to walk/run away from the other person? You have a chance to employ verbal judo? You can throw some loose change in their face?

Is this what you're saying?

 

[drop bear]

Hmmm, so your telling me your sparring takes place;

• Inside of a car?
• In an elevator?
• On stair?
• In an alley?
• On a bed?
• In a doorway?
• On a slopping and/or wet surface?
• On asphalt?
• In dim light?
• By complete surprise?
• With multiple attackers?
• With weapons (standard or improvised)?

So you're telling me that you have the option to walk/run away from the other person? You have a chance to employ verbal judo? You can throw some loose change in their face?

Is this what you're saying?

Well yeah pretty much. I have those sort of friends

But the principals of sparring cover those conditions without having to go to every single environment. And develop a new set of tactics for each one which would be an arduous way to lean to defend yourself.

Basically if you can dodge a spanner you can dodge a dodge ball.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well yeah pretty much. I have those sort of friends

Well great. But I'll be honest with you, either your not being honest with us or you make a habit of contradicting yourself.

But the principals of sparring cover those conditions without having to go to every single environment.

So instead of learning to fight 8 guys with weapons in a flash Gordon style death ring I focus on being able to handle one guy.

Learning to handle one guy isn't 'covering those conditions' that I've listed. Sparring is one-on-one and I think your embellishing how you spar a bit to try to make it into something it isn't. No offense, but like K-man I'm calling BS.

 

[drop bear]

Well great. But I'll be honest with you, either your not being honest with us or you make a habit of contradicting yourself.





Learning to handle one guy isn't 'covering those conditions' that I've listed. Sparring is one-on-one and I think your embellishing how you spar a bit to try to make it into something it isn't. No offense, but like K-man I'm calling BS.

Learning basics is.

I don't need to find every stairwell I conceivably might find myself in a fight in and train there so I am prepared. I focus on a few set concepts and then apply them.

Then I randomise those concepts with sparring.

Then it does not matter if it is one guy ten guys in a house on a stair or on top of a moving train. The tools are still there to be employed.

Why is sparring one on one?

 

[drop bear]

I have sparred people everywhere. We have a tendency to just jump each other randomly and from there it gets worked out. Not that its a big claim to fame.

By all ranges I mean standing up sitting down punching kicking grappling. A basic skill set that is transferable to stairs and dim lights and suprises.

If I want to throw things at people I can. It does not effect. the rest of my system. Neither does running away. I am not a robot.

I am not sure what impression you have about mma. But I'd do not actually need an hour of warm up to put on my mma clothes and then my hands taped then wait for walk out music then wait for a ref to say start before I can start defending myself.

The same as I can defend myself outside a cage throw money run away from fights eye gouge spit be nice to people so they don't fight me at all.

I will explain this again.

Training is not fighting.

So when you say I am limited by rules. You also have rules.

I think people are being increadably hypocritical.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

All of mine have. But I am not naturally aggressive.

If you're out of high school but find yourself in schoolyard style fights, then that is more a reflection of the company you keep or the establishments that you frequent. than of how self defence is in the big picture.

A rape does not resemble schoolyard fistfights, for example. Nor does a mugging, an attempted kidnapping, or an armed robbery. Principles and skills you learn in sparring may be applicable, and the ability to keep your head is certainly a benefit, but that does not change the fact that MMA sparring does not resemble these things.

And mma is more in line with how fighting looks anyway.

Debatable, and not all SD circumstances are 'fights' along the lines of MMA.

So if you're talking about street fighting as in underground fighting for money and unsanctioned tournaments, MMA probably is more in line with how 'fighting' looks.

If you're talking about street fighting as in handling yourself in a violent or potentially violent encounter, then MMA is not more in line with how 'fighting' looks. And neither is any other form of contest fighting.

 

[drop bear]

If you're out of high school but find yourself in schoolyard style fights, then that is more a reflection of the company you keep or the establishments that you frequent. than of how self defence is in the big picture.

A rape does not resemble schoolyard fistfights, for example. Nor does a mugging, an attempted kidnapping, or an armed robbery. Principles and skills you learn in sparring may be applicable, and the ability to keep your head is certainly a benefit, but that does not change the fact that MMA sparring does not resemble these things.


Debatable, and not all SD circumstances are 'fights' along the lines of MMA.

So if you're talking about street fighting as in underground fighting for money and unsanctioned tournaments, MMA probably is more in line with how 'fighting' looks.

If you're talking about street fighting as in handling yourself in a violent or potentially violent encounter, then MMA is not more in line with how 'fighting' looks. And neither is any other form of contest fighting.

You mentioned your experience I mentioned mine. My experience is that the fighting is similar.

The basic mechanics of the fight looks the same as the basic mechanics of a mma match. Look at a fight there is punching kicking and grappling.

The basic defences are the same in a fight as mma. I am trying to reduce damage and maintain a good position.

Weapons is different. And I have said before mma does not cover that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You mentioned your experience I mentioned mine. My experience is that the fighting is similar.

I wasn't disputing your experience. I will restate what I said: the types of altercations that you (the general you) get into and the frequency of such altercations are more a reflection of you than of the big picture of what violent encounters look like.

If you're getting into fist fights that resemble tournament sparring, then you are doing so because of the company you keep or the places you frequent. There are certain places wherein certain types of violence is more common. Just as there are certain places where other types of violence are more common. One's gender and the way one carries themselves can have an influence on how likely you might be to be victimized by physical violence.

At this point in my life, cyber security is a greater concern for me than physical security. I'm far more likely to be electronically filched than I am to be mugged.

The basic mechanics of the fight looks the same as the basic mechanics of a mma match. Look at a fight there is punching kicking and grappling.

The basic defences are the same in a fight as mma. I am trying to reduce damage and maintain a good position.

Weapons is different. And I have said before mma does not cover that.

Sure, but none of that is what I was referring to.

 

[K-man]

I have looked at every video you have posted and seen mostly unresisted drills. Some were fast but still unresisted. I am an advocate of resisted training.

From what you have posted all your training looks like drills. Of one shade or another. That is neither a new or secret concept. I do drills that's are choreographed and ones that approximate a fight. And then progress from that to sparring which is another approximation and so on.

No training is the same as fighting. No training is done without rules and safety measures. That is the reality of good training.

What I don't understand is you have this system that is faster and more effective. That is crucial to winning fights and that is sold and readily available to anyone who wants to take the time out to do it and you then think nobody else is adopting these concepts. That I don't understand them just because I don't agree with them.


I would not put someone in a competition if they had not sparred they would be under prepared and get hurt. A competition is safer than an attack so I could not envisage preparing somone for an attack without sparring.

I would just not be giving them the best chance.

Now your system should be easily provable because it would dominate in competition. Considering you are trained for the much more serious nature of the street. The safety and ineffectiveness of sports martial arts should be easy to take on.

I didn't post a video of our training for you, and I have posted no videos of our training ever. I suggested you did some research for yourself if you want to understand where I am coming from. We train against full resistance constantly, we hit to the body with close to full power constantly, we train fast or slow when appropriate but we do not train drills and we do not spar in the conventional sense. We are not into competition and our techniques are not suited to competition. We have no choreographed moves, our partners responses are totally unscripted.

Your comment on being tested in competition is unrealistic. We have another thread on that so I'm not going down that rabbit hole here. We are RB and that is not suited to competition. I have no desire to compete in the ring, I did enough competing in earlier times. It is nothing like what we train now and it would be impossible to take just a portion of it to prove it in competition.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

I wasn't disputing your experience. I will restate what I said: the types of altercations that you (the general you) get into and the frequency of such altercations are more a reflection of you than of the big picture of what violent encounters look like.

If you're getting into fist fights that resemble tournament sparring, then you are doing so because of the company you keep or the places you frequent. There are certain places wherein certain types of violence is more common. Just as there are certain places where other types of violence are more common. One's gender and the way one carries themselves can have an influence on how likely you might be to be victimized by physical violence.

At this point in my life, cyber security is a greater concern for me than physical security. I'm far more likely to be electronically filched than I am to be mugged.


Sure, but none of that is what I was referring to.

You were referring to how fights went in your experience. I refered to how fights went in mine. Each persons experience in a fight is different.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You were referring to how fights went in your experience. I refered to how fights went in mine. Each persons experience in a fight is different.

That was my point.

When you say 'fight,' are you referring to self defence in general or to two guys stepping outside and duking it out?