How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

[Chris Parker]

Hi Franco,

I'm the one you're quoting, by the way, so we'll get any confusion about that out of the way first. On to your points:

1: A "sparring" match is against a similarly trained opponent (or at least trained in a similar style/method), and as such is no real indication of effectiveness of technique against anyone but someone trained in the same methodology as yourself, and usually under restrictive rules.
And who sets these rules of matching skill levels? Your school may, but not mine, so please don't place the limitations of your training as a comparison, cuz they're not even close.

The "rules" are often dictated by the system and it's Instructors, but can also include implied rules as well. And, if you haven't noticed by each of my posts here, I do not indulge in sparring as described here, but the majority of "mainstream" arts do (and those I have been involved in in the past as well, just so we're sure). These implied rules include single opponents, referees, only certain tools being utilised (hands and feet, but no takedowns; throws, chokes and grappling with no striking; each different range, but no weapons and a time limit). These are only examples, and each may be included or not, or variations thereof. As we have established that this is the form of sparring accepted as the pmise of this thread, if you are not indulging in competitive-type sparring, then I would say you come down on the side of sparring not being essential. But that's just my interpretation.

2:Well, this can be done in any number of ways. And it isn't covered at all in no-contact sparring, so while I thoroughly agree with you that it is a vital (and often under-emphasised) aspect of martial art training to be able to take a hit as well as deliver one, you cannot take sparring as the way to find out. There are just too many other methods which can be used as drills in a much more effective way, and there are too many variants on the concept of sparring that do not include contact for it to be particularly viable here.
OK, I can see your view, but for the benefit of others, explain to me and the others who are reading this, the "other" methods of how one is to measure whether or nor not you can take the hits. Do we stand still and see how hard a shot we can take?

Sure. Geoff Thompson's Animal Day training is probably a very good example. Putting on protective armour, and training techniques that way is also quite good. We have often put on head gear, been hit very solidly in the head (more than enough to rattle you), then had to immediately hit a target, or defend against an incoming attacker. There are more, but these should suffice for now, I think.

3: As for who runs out of gas first, this is absolutely essential... for a competition. If you are training for survival, most fights last 3 to 10 seconds, so endurance isn't so much of an issue. However, the ability to handle the adrenaline dump and it's after-effects is vital.
So you can fully predict that a street confrontation will last you 3 to 10 seconds? If we all had the gift of determining/guessing how long a confrontation will last, wouldn't we all train towards acheiving that? Sorry but thats a limitation. I do however agree that controlling the adrenalin dump is important.

Check out the stats. Check with any RBSD group or trainer. This is, statistically, the length of time for most fights. Oh, and for the record, you may notice that I use the qualifier "most" fights. I by no means can predict any chaotic situation with perfect clarity, but I can look at the evidence and use it to best tailor my training and the training of my students for their (and my) needs. And that is not competition. This is not MMA. And as for it being a limitation, I always advise our students to get to a gym, aerobic and anaerobic fitness is not to be underestimated. But the reality is that a "typical" fight simply won't last for minutes, it'll just feel like it.

So, in essence (once again), it depends entirely on why you are training, how you train in your system, and how you art your art define "sparring". And finally, if anyone feels that the traditional Japanese form of free-form training (randori) is less scary than the more competitive versions of sparring, I invite you to recognise that the traditional is far closer to a fight in that there is an attacker who is commited to attacking when the defender doesn't know hwo they are coming at them, and the defender is responding in ways the attacker doesn't know to prepare for. As in most fights, there is an attacker and a defender, as opposed to sparring in which there are 2 aggressors (which is not actually realistic at all).
OK my friend, this is something we agree upon. Part of our training is what we call D/A Sparring (Defender'Aggressor Sparring) which is basically learning to react against the sucker punch/direct attack. This where the elements of what we were talking about comes in to play. This is what separates "sparring' from "reactive defenses". The prior (sparring) helps to develope skill sets such as the jab, combos and the ability to take a hit. DA works on the more immediate apps. Kinda see the diff?

Yeah, I see that you are finding a difference. And I'm glad that you are getting results out of your version of sparring. But for the main, and the most common interpretation of the term sparring, I feel my comments stand. Anyone who differs is more than welcome to ask any questions, I always prefer a lively debate. So my thanks to you for helping me clarify my position.

[/quote]

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

To me it is not about sparring or not sparing it is about can you apply said technique in a realisitic manner.

Sparring implies 2 people agree to meet with said amount of precautions,rules and use of power.

A fight does not meet these requirements for there are no rules,no precautions.

There of course needs to be a level of resistance be that in sparring and practicing without sparing because it is the resistance that is the key and not so much sparring or not sparring.

But these topics have been discussed even in old times I remember a story concerning sword Kata vs sparring the students felt that sparring was more efficent the master showed them by parring every block during sparring and saying which part of Kata he was using. The point was he felt that Kata contained all the essential movements needed and if practiced long enough will provide success in real encounters.

 

[jks9199]

Without careful structure and planning, sparring is preparation for dueling. Even the roughest free sparring has some mutually agreed on rules. The Dog Brothers Gatherings allow the fighters to choose the rules -- and they mutually limit the damage they do to each other.

A duelist may do well in an actual encounter; after all, they have practiced and put their tactics into use in a more real environment. But a duelist may also be overwhelmed by the facts of real violence, outside the ring. It's not according to the "script." They may not play by the rules; they might attack with illegal or unorthodox techniques, or before they're supposed to. Or just really hit!

But kata (solo or two person), step-sparring, and other partner work can be equally bad at preparing you. They lend themselves even more to developing habits of expecting the attack -- even responding before the actual attack happens!

Scenario training, done properly is fantastic preparation for the real deal; it's as close as you can get without actually getting jumped. But to do it right is NOT easy and most people who think they know what they are doing are actually doing a pretty awful job. There's more to it than making up a scenario and seeing what you can do...

The best training balances all of these in a way that's appropriate to the student's goals. If they're preparing for competition, sparring may take priority over scenarios and partner work. If they're cops preparing to go on the street -- scenario training is key. You just have to focus YOUR training for YOUR goals.

 

[BLACK LION]

Without careful structure and planning, sparring is preparation for dueling. Even the roughest free sparring has some mutually agreed on rules. The Dog Brothers Gatherings allow the fighters to choose the rules -- and they mutually limit the damage they do to each other.

A duelist may do well in an actual encounter; after all, they have practiced and put their tactics into use in a more real environment. But a duelist may also be overwhelmed by the facts of real violence, outside the ring. It's not according to the "script." They may not play by the rules; they might attack with illegal or unorthodox techniques, or before they're supposed to. Or just really hit!

But kata (solo or two person), step-sparring, and other partner work can be equally bad at preparing you. They lend themselves even more to developing habits of expecting the attack -- even responding before the actual attack happens!

Scenario training, done properly is fantastic preparation for the real deal; it's as close as you can get without actually getting jumped. But to do it right is NOT easy and most people who think they know what they are doing are actually doing a pretty awful job. There's more to it than making up a scenario and seeing what you can do...

The best training balances all of these in a way that's appropriate to the student's goals. If they're preparing for competition, sparring may take priority over scenarios and partner work. If they're cops preparing to go on the street -- scenario training is key. You just have to focus YOUR training for YOUR goals.

That was a well articulated post... thanks

 

[AnglingBoi]

Its good to spar, Keeps your wits on end.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Remebering how it feels when your fist strikes meat and bone will make you less reluctant to strike.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Remebering how it feels when your fist strikes meat and bone will make you less reluctant to strike.

That's why you do your bag work at the local slaughter house.....ROCKY STYLE!

 

[shihansmurf]

Real, hard sparring is where you strip away what you KNOW from what you THINK you know.......it's not about gaining a truth, it's about losing an illusion and subsequently training accordingly.

Unvarnished truth for the taking right there. Well said. All the kata and step sparring in the world amounts to simply a well rehersed op-plan, and as Mr. Murphy points out, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy"!

Heavy contact sparring is the proving ground for the techniques that populate your arsenal for real world fighting. Now, others may be comfortable with trusting themselves to material that they haven't pressure tested against a resisting opponent that is activly striking them with enough force to elicit appropriate stress responses, but I sure wouldn't. If your goal in training in the martial arts is the development of actual fighting skills, then there simply isn't any way that is remotely as effective as heavy contact sparring. If you have other reasons for training, then go for it, but results vary accordingly.

Mark

 

[wingchun100]

If you mean sparring with rules, then it might not hurt you at all. However, interacting with another human being DOES get you to learn how to read the human body. That is where your reflexes are truly developed. For a while all I could do was shadow box because I couldn't afford to go to class, but I realized very quickly this was a waste of time (well, except for the cardio benefit) because I'm "defending" against only the attacks *I* can imagine.

Long story short, you need to spar full-blast as if it were a real street situation.

 

[K-man]

If you mean sparring with rules, then it might not hurt you at all. However, interacting with another human being DOES get you to learn how to read the human body. That is where your reflexes are truly developed. For a while all I could do was shadow box because I couldn't afford to go to class, but I realized very quickly this was a waste of time (well, except for the cardio benefit) because I'm "defending" against only the attacks *I* can imagine.

Long story short, you need to spar full-blast as if it were a real street situation.

How do you define sparring?

 

[Flying Crane]

Long story short, you need to spar full-blast as if it were a real street situation.

so every sparring session should end with someone going to the hospital or the morgue, and a police report?

 

[K-man]

so every sparring session should end with someone going to the hospital or the morgue, and a police report?

Good point. :hmm:

 

[drop bear]

so every sparring session should end with someone going to the hospital or the morgue, and a police report?

I would say that not every self defence situation should end with someone going to the hospital or the morgue.

But full contact sparring is a different game to semi contact. The factors become different.

 

[drop bear]

I am not a fan of scenario training. I believe it promotes the attacker to start reacting badly. They start to train their flinch reaction in a way that assists the other guy. As opposed to actively trying to spoil the technique and make their partner look bad.

I have found it is much easier to deal with a person that has scenario trained than a person that has not trained at all. And I think it is due to a person who has not trained does not recognize my technique will work.

I do train drills. I do not train them to where I tea off on a guy who is just standing there.

An example arakan.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2rBj1d4_kgk

See how they are flinching and collapsing when it is an action that is detrimental to self defence.

 

[drop bear]

What sparring leaves a gap in is the covering of distance. I am hesitant to run full bore at someone to engage them. But this situation is quite often forced when a fight has no boundaries. The tactics of that becomes a different game.

 

[K-man]

I am not a fan of scenario training. I believe it promotes the attacker to start reacting badly. They start to train their flinch reaction in a way that assists the other guy. As opposed to actively trying to spoil the technique and make their partner look bad.

I have found it is much easier to deal with a person that has scenario trained than a person that has not trained at all. And I think it is due to a person who has not trained does not recognize my technique will work.

I do train drills. I do not train them to where I tea off on a guy who is just standing there.

An example arakan.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2rBj1d4_kgk

See how they are flinching and collapsing when it is an action that is detrimental to self defence.

Well, I would say that the person receiving is role playing in a realistic response to an attack. The better you are as a martial artist, the better you can receive and the more value your partner will get out of the exercise. If you have to actually use full force to get your partner's response you will end up with massive injuries and no students. So I don't see anything as flinching and collapsing. I see a guy responding to his partner's moves. It is the basis of predictable response training.

As to your claim that someone who has scenario trained being easier to deal with than some one who hasn't trained at all ... sorry ... :bs:

 

[Flying Crane]

I would say that not every self defence situation should end with someone going to the hospital or the morgue.

one would hope. But if I'm attacked, it may well go there. And if I go full blast, there's a very good chance it will go there.

But full contact sparring is a different game to semi contact. The factors become different.

sure, but that's also a different game from going "full-blast, as if it were a real street situation".

 

[drop bear]

Well, I would say that the person receiving is role playing in a realistic response to an attack. The better you are as a martial artist, the better you can receive and the more value your partner will get out of the exercise. If you have to actually use full force to get your partner's response you will end up with massive injuries and no students. So I don't see anything as flinching and collapsing. I see a guy responding to his partner's moves. It is the basis of predictable response training.

As to your claim that someone who has scenario trained being easier to deal with than some one who hasn't trained at all ... sorry ... :bs:

It does you or your partner no good to respond appropriately to their attacks. It certanally doesn't do any good to be driving your head backwards when punches come at you as it is a great way to get hurt if they are real punches. And if you shouldn't be doing it then I shouldn't be attacking someone who is doing it.


And you are right the better you get the better you can receive attacks poorly.
It just loweres the bar.

And you can call be on my experience. It is anecdotal and not able to be proved.

 

[drop bear]

one would hope. But if I'm attacked, it may well go there. And if I go full blast, there's a very good chance it will go there.



sure, but that's also a different game from going "full-blast, as if it were a real street situation".

Decent padding and short rounds you should be able to manage it. Without too much injury. I used to do reality based stuff with ten second rounds that was helpful.

In general you are only ever going to approximate fighting in training.

 

[K-man]

It does you or your partner no good to respond appropriately to their attacks. It certanally doesn't do any good to be driving your head backwards when punches come at you as it is a great way to get hurt if they are real punches. And if you shouldn't be doing it then I shouldn't be attacking someone who is doing it.


And you are right the better you get the better you can receive attacks poorly.
It just loweres the bar.

And you can call be on my experience. It is anecdotal and not able to be proved.

So what you are claiming is that unless your partner does a real strike that causes a real reaction the training is detrimental to your training. When I am partner to someone training predictable response I want a realistic attack but I don't want a full out attack that will cripple me. And he needs my response to move to the next technique in the bunkai. You claim that you have experienced RB training but you have not posted anything that shows you understood it. That, or it was not RB to start with.

Decent padding and short rounds you should be able to manage it. Without too much injury. I used to do reality based stuff with ten second rounds that was helpful.

In general you are only ever going to approximate fighting in training.

Sorry, without a red man suit that is just not possible.
:asian: