How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

I think we're on the same page regarding aiki. It's that moment when you feel like your opponent is throwing himself and you're just helping steer where he goes with no effort whatsoever. I've had that happen occasionally in sparring. Generally it's been a moment when my sparring partner comes forward with a little too much commitment and I've been able to blend with his energy while applying a Judo technique like Harai Goshi or Tai Otoshi. It really does feel magical.

The thing about those occurrences is that they are dependent on the other person screwing up and providing that over-committed motion at a moment when you are prepared to take advantage of it. A skilled fighter is not going to provide very many of those opportunities. That's why if you put a master of an aiki based art into a cage fight he'll have to use something else 99.9% of the time.

Presumably an untrained attacker in a street assault would be more likely to provide those opportunities. However I think it is a mistake to train under the assumptions that the option will always be there.

BTW - my theory about the purpose of the Nage no Kata in Judo is to provide a reminder to be ready for that "aiki" moment when the opponent gives you exactly what you need for an effortless throw. In competition a judoka will be facing a skilled opponent who knows how to maintain a solid base and will be unlikely to put himself off-balance. Therefore Judo competition becomes more a game of forcing that off-balanced moment and it's possible to forget about the possibility of an effortless throw being just handed to you on a silver platter.

That's a pretty close definition, Tony. And your comment about the trained fighter is one I've made, too. If I do randori with someone trained in a grappling art, much of the aiki opportunities go away. If they are trained in an aiki art, they should be able to remove pretty much all of them unless I'm a lot more skilled than them.

One distinction is that it is possible to nudge someone into an aiki moment. It doesn't work well with trained fighters, because they've replaced many predictable reflex responses with movement into techniques. With untrained individuals, however, their range of responses to some input is more predictable. I verify this when I get a new student who has no (or at least little) prior training. I can verify parts of it even with folks trained in other arts. For instance, those who train in striking only tend toward some reactions more than the untrained population, and more reliably than those with a grappling background.

And many of the things that cause aiki opportunities just don't come up in competition. If someone reaches for my phone/wallet/the knife I just managed to take away, they use a motion (and level of commitment) that's unlikely to occur in any competition. The same goes for a barroom shove, or an enraged tackle. All are good examples of movements unlikely to have close analogs in sparring or competition because the opponent is purposely maintaining control of his body to avoid giving those opportunities.

As you say, it's not a good idea to assume those will always be handy. This is my problem with some of the stylized drills used in some aiki arts. If they are used too often, you're only training for aiki movements. I teach versions of techniques that I refer to as "the Judo version" as a shorthand for indicating there's no real aiki "void" there, but a good place to apply leverage and technique that they can't easily counter. I also teach students that if they head toward a technique and it goes away (meaning the opening vanishes) that their first response should be to hit them. This is an oversimplification of the principle, but it gets new students away from chasing aiki and into finishing the defense.

 

[Flying Crane]

How is "agnostic" (which means "unknown" or "unknowable") the same as "predetermined"?

He has already decided it is unknowable. So he will never acknowledge good aikido.

If Steve wants to clarify his position, that's fine.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is right. Agnostic is more precisely a religious term, but this is exactly what I was getting at. So there good aikido? I can guess so, but from the outside, I'm told that if I want to know for sure, I have to join the church.... Err.... I mean, train in the system. It's set up so that the lack of independent evidence is explained away. In the same way I can't prove God doesn't persist, therefore God must exist... At least according to some. And to be clear, good aikido meaning good for self defense, which is the context of this thread.

It is unfortunate that you have not had the opportunity to see good aikido. I suggest you gather more of your info from outside of YouTube.

If, that is, you are actually open to the possibility and don't simply have your mind made up.

If your mind is simply made up, then further discussion is pointless.

 

[moonhill99]

MMA and sports tournaments won't help you figure out if a video is real or fake, though it may help you figure out if a technique can be used in those contexts. And "fake" is not a proper term for the video in question. It's not a fake, it's just apparently not showing good boxing, though they probably think they are.

But like YOU SAID in other post Aikido can not be made into sports like tournament, olympics, ‪Grapplers Quest‬, North American Grappling Association, MMA so on like Judo, BJJ, Gracie Barra, wrestling or 10th planet jiu jitsu so on.

Because people have broken wrist if they resist.

That people don't criticize Judo, BJJ, Gracie Barra, wrestling or 10th planet jiu jitsu so on because it pressure tested with resistance in hard Randori and in competition and it works in competition. That if such school everyone does really bad in competition like tournament, Olympics, ‪Grapplers Quest‬, North American Grappling Association, MMA than some thing is wrong with school or the way they teach.

Well yes tournament, Olympics, ‪Grapplers Quest‬, North American Grappling Association, MMA so on does not mean it can be used for say self defense has you lack training on weapons, illegal moves in street, ban moves not allowed in sports, many attackers so on. All you know is your art is pressure tested with hard resistance.

But like you say if people started posting videos on youtube of Aikido in hard Randori there will be broken bones so the way Aikido is you can't have hard Randori or be used in sports competition as hard resistance you have broken bone.

That some people criticize it not pressure tested like those arts.

 

[moonhill99]

It is unfortunate that you have not had the opportunity to see good aikido. I suggest you gather more of your info from outside of YouTube.

If, that is, you are actually open to the possibility and don't simply have your mind made up.

If your mind is simply made up, then further discussion is pointless.

Because like Gpseymour said if Aikido was used on the street in self defense it will not look like how it is in Aikido school. It will be more gritty the Aikido and look different.

That people look at Aikido videos and see them throwing them self to NOT have broken bones and think they don't resist and thus bad Aikido.

And Gpseymour saying if we train like that in class we will all have broken bones if we all go out and resist.

And faster go at it more chance of broken bones if you resist Gpseymour said.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think we're on the same page regarding aiki. It's that moment when you feel like your opponent is throwing himself and you're just helping steer where he goes with no effort whatsoever. I've had that happen occasionally in sparring. Generally it's been a moment when my sparring partner comes forward with a little too much commitment and I've been able to blend with his energy while applying a Judo technique like Harai Goshi or Tai Otoshi. It really does feel magical.

The thing about those occurrences is that they are dependent on the other person screwing up and providing that over-committed motion at a moment when you are prepared to take advantage of it. A skilled fighter is not going to provide very many of those opportunities. That's why if you put a master of an aiki based art into a cage fight he'll have to use something else 99.9% of the time.

Presumably an untrained attacker in a street assault would be more likely to provide those opportunities. However I think it is a mistake to train under the assumptions that the option will always be there.

BTW - my theory about the purpose of the Nage no Kata in Judo is to provide a reminder to be ready for that "aiki" moment when the opponent gives you exactly what you need for an effortless throw. In competition a judoka will be facing a skilled opponent who knows how to maintain a solid base and will be unlikely to put himself off-balance. Therefore Judo competition becomes more a game of forcing that off-balanced moment and it's possible to forget about the possibility of an effortless throw being just handed to you on a silver platter.

Speaking of magic, I have been attacked a few times, over the years, and on more than one occasion, I just stuck my knee out to an incoming kick, and somehow my attackers ended up flying through the air and landing quite badly. They were effortless wins; in fact, I didn't even know I was in a fight, until after it was over, and man, was it over.

 

[Steve]

It is unfortunate that you have not had the opportunity to see good aikido. I suggest you gather more of your info from outside of YouTube.

If, that is, you are actually open to the possibility and don't simply have your mind made up.

If your mind is simply made up, then further discussion is pointless.

Where do you recommend?

 

[Hanzou]

But like you say if people started posting videos on youtube of Aikido in hard Randori there will be broken bones so the way Aikido is you can't have hard Randori or be used in sports competition as hard resistance you have broken bone.
.

Eh.... There's wrist, ankle, elbow, knee, and shoulder locks in Bjj and very seldom do people end up with broken bones.

I suppose the difference is that Aikido uses the joint to control the body, whereas Bjj, Judo, Sambo, Catch, etc. uses the body to control the joint.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He has already decided it is unknowable. So he will never acknowledge good aikido.

If Steve wants to clarify his position, that's fine.

That would not be an agnostic stance. By your assumption there, nobody can ever change their minds. If we go by the way agnostic is commonly used, he has decided he doesn't know and has accepted that the answer may be unknowable. That doesn't mean he'll reject evidence of good Aikido, but that he'll be skeptical of it - which we should all be skeptical when reviewing any MA. That skeptical analysis is what lets us learn from other styles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But like YOU SAID in other post Aikido can not be made into sports like tournament, olympics, ‪Grapplers Quest‬, North American Grappling Association, MMA so on like Judo, BJJ, Gracie Barra, wrestling or 10th planet jiu jitsu so on.

Because people have broken wrist if they resist.

That people don't criticize Judo, BJJ, Gracie Barra, wrestling or 10th planet jiu jitsu so on because it pressure tested with resistance in hard Randori and in competition and it works in competition. That if such school everyone does really bad in competition like tournament, Olympics, ‪Grapplers Quest‬, North American Grappling Association, MMA than some thing is wrong with school or the way they teach.

Well yes tournament, Olympics, ‪Grapplers Quest‬, North American Grappling Association, MMA so on does not mean it can be used for say self defense has you lack training on weapons, illegal moves in street, ban moves not allowed in sports, many attackers so on. All you know is your art is pressure tested with hard resistance.

But like you say if people started posting videos on youtube of Aikido in hard Randori there will be broken bones so the way Aikido is you can't have hard Randori or be used in sports competition as hard resistance you have broken bone.

That some people criticize it not pressure tested like those arts.

You are working off two bad assumptions.

1) That folks in Aikido much care what is said about the effectiveness. Most of those I've met who study that art have their own opinions and aren't terribly concerned about others'. I think that attitude is part of what draws them to the art.

2) That what doesn't work in competition cannot work outside competition. This is demonstrably false. There are many things that should not be used in competition. Would you argue that those moves that have been banned from GJJ competition, Judo competition, and MMA fights were banned because they don't work? The issue with saying competition is the only measurement of effectiveness is that it depends upon A) people wanting to compete (which many of us don't), and B) training for responses and techniques that are valid for competition.

I spent most of the last two classes training my students on how to deal with someone trying to grab their wrist (to take a phone, wallet, keys, knife, whatever). This type of grab has no analog in competition, because there's nothing in the hand the opponent would want. None of that training has any use in the ring. The same goes for many other areas I train my students in.

And some techniques can be trained in ways that are usable in competition. We don't train them for competition, so they aren't executed in a way that's safe to resist. If someone resists they will either succeed in escaping, or they will get hurt, and that's not good for competition. It's fine for self-defense, though. If I were training folks for competition, I'd adjust the techniques, leaving some applications out, entirely, because they have no submission base (a way to hold the lock long enough to submit someone) and are only usable in that application if they are used as destructions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because like Gpseymour said if Aikido was used on the street in self defense it will not look like how it is in Aikido school. It will be more gritty the Aikido and look different.

That people look at Aikido videos and see them throwing them self to NOT have broken bones and think they don't resist and thus bad Aikido.

And Gpseymour saying if we train like that in class we will all have broken bones if we all go out and resist.

And faster go at it more chance of broken bones if you resist Gpseymour said.

I did say that. About SOME techniques. And yes, the big falls are for self-protection, but AS I SAID EARLIER, they often offer too little resistance in training.

You're trying really hard to stretch my points to cover everything. They were points about specific areas of training, and do not overlap at all the way you're trying to make them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Eh.... There's wrist, ankle, elbow, knee, and shoulder locks in Bjj and very seldom do people end up with broken bones.

I suppose the difference is that Aikido uses the joint to control the body, whereas Bjj, Judo, Sambo, Catch, etc. uses the body to control the joint.

That's a pretty good comparison, Hanzou. In fact, one of the principles I teach is "small to large" - meaning we use a small part of the body to get a larger part to move. One execution of that would be a wrist lock being used to move a shoulder, to get the spine off-center for a throw.

I think the BJJ and Judo versions are just as effective where they overlap. The main difference is that they seem to have been designed to be safe for submission - there's a good base to hold the pain/lock to give the opponent time to resist a bit then give up and tap out. I don't see any that wouldn't be usable within NGA (some in fact are pretty much the same for us), though many wouldn't fit into the larger circles I see used in Aikido. The main difference is that we (in NGA, and to some extent in Aikido) tend not to look for a submission base with them. We depend upon the pain to work (similar thought process to some submissions) or we move directly to destruction. Where the pain doesn't work, the attacker resists himself directly into the destruction.

 

[Spinedoc]

I think we're on the same page regarding aiki. It's that moment when you feel like your opponent is throwing himself and you're just helping steer where he goes with no effort whatsoever. I've had that happen occasionally in sparring. Generally it's been a moment when my sparring partner comes forward with a little too much commitment and I've been able to blend with his energy while applying a Judo technique like Harai Goshi or Tai Otoshi. It really does feel magical.

The thing about those occurrences is that they are dependent on the other person screwing up and providing that over-committed motion at a moment when you are prepared to take advantage of it. A skilled fighter is not going to provide very many of those opportunities. That's why if you put a master of an aiki based art into a cage fight he'll have to use something else 99.9% of the time.

Exactly. My Sensei has said over and over again, that Aikido does NOT work without a committed attack. If someone is not willing to commit, we simply don't do anything. Simply just walk away. Until someone commits, and is willing to completely commit to an attack, Aikido doesn't work. This is exactly why, being ex-military, I think Aikido works well in combative type situations where someone is REALLY trying to hurt or kill you, but does not work well at all in sport applications, where you are trying to win a match.

True Aikido never, ever, ever, meets resistance with resistance. You cannot force a technique, or "make" it work. You have to blend with whatever energy they give you and find that spot where there is no balance or resistance.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Exactly. My Sensei has said over and over again, that Aikido does NOT work without a committed attack. If someone is not willing to commit, we simply don't do anything. Simply just walk away. Until someone commits, and is willing to completely commit to an attack, Aikido doesn't work. This is exactly why, being ex-military, I think Aikido works well in combative type situations where someone is REALLY trying to hurt or kill you, but does not work well at all in sport applications, where you are trying to win a match.

True Aikido never, ever, ever, meets resistance with resistance. You cannot force a technique, or "make" it work. You have to blend with whatever energy they give you and find that spot where there is no balance or resistance.

It's not just committing to an attack which is necessary. It's over-committing in such a way that the attackers balance or structure is compromised. A good boxer can knock an opponent out without compromising his base. A good wrestler can take an opponent down without giving up his structure. A good Kali practitioner can cut someone to ribbons without over-extending.

Admittedly in the heat of an tough match, even a skilled fighter can make a mistake and put himself at risk. It's just not something you can count on. It's good to be ready to take advantage of the opportunity if it occurs, but you can't assume that will always happen - even in a non-sportive context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not just committing to an attack which is necessary. It's over-committing in such a way that the attackers balance or structure is compromised. A good boxer can knock an opponent out without compromising his base. A good wrestler can take an opponent down without giving up his structure. A good Kali practitioner can cut someone to ribbons without over-extending.

Admittedly in the heat of an tough match, even a skilled fighter can make a mistake and put himself at risk. It's just not something you can count on. It's good to be ready to take advantage of the opportunity if it occurs, but you can't assume that will always happen - even in a non-sportive context.

This is why I talk about pure-aiki being rare against a trained opponent. A pure striker (not trained in throws) may give me some opportunities around it since they are perhaps more focused on power and speed in strikes than in reserving weight, but someone with any sensible training in grappling, takedowns, or throws will carry their weight in a way that makes it really unlikely they give me those opportunities unless I prod them into it (with a strike, push, etc.). As you said in a prior post, these things even happen between Judoka, but they become rare because each is guarding his weight commitment precisely to avoid this...until the moment when he sees an opportunity to throw me, and then it's a race to see who executes on the opportunity faster.

 

[Spinedoc]

It's not just committing to an attack which is necessary. It's over-committing in such a way that the attackers balance or structure is compromised. A good boxer can knock an opponent out without compromising his base. A good wrestler can take an opponent down without giving up his structure. A good Kali practitioner can cut someone to ribbons without over-extending.

Admittedly in the heat of an tough match, even a skilled fighter can make a mistake and put himself at risk. It's just not something you can count on. It's good to be ready to take advantage of the opportunity if it occurs, but you can't assume that will always happen - even in a non-sportive context.

Not necessarily, I can create the over-commitment, and in fact we practice "leading" the attacker into a compromised position, as well as using atemi to create it. Yokomenuchi Shihonage comes to mind, where nage does a front foot tenshin, forcing uke to extend his strike, and then nage hits uke with atemi, and executes the technique.

Without that front foot tenshin, it would never work. And if uke does not extend his strike, but withdraws, then we don't do anything.

Tai sabaki is key. You can create over commitment, but, you have to understand why you are moving the way you are. Uke does not have to over commit initially, but he must be serious in his attack, and then using tai sabaki and atemi, you can "create" that balance compromise.

Mike

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not necessarily, I can create the over-commitment, and in fact we practice "leading" the attacker into a compromised position, as well as using atemi to create it. Yokomenuchi Shihonage comes to mind, where nage does a front foot tenshin, forcing uke to extend his strike, and then nage hits uke with atemi, and executes the technique.

Without that front foot tenshin, it would never work. And if uke does not extend his strike, but withdraws, then we don't do anything.

Tai sabaki is key. You can create over commitment, but, you have to understand why you are moving the way you are. Uke does not have to over commit initially, but he must be serious in his attack, and then using tai sabaki and atemi, you can "create" that balance compromise.

Mike

Have you tried doing that with an experienced boxer?

In my experience, a skilled boxer will close the distance using footwork that allows him to maintain a solid base while punching without overextending. If you change the range in an attempt to make him overextend, he will adjust his footwork to compensate. He will also be prepared for counterstrikes (atemi) and will be difficult to hit and will be less prone than most people to compromise his position even if you do manage to hit him.

Some high level boxers will use footwork and psychology to lure their opponents into overextending, although they punish the overextension with a counter-punch rather than an aiki throw. It takes time to make that work against a skilled opponent though. In the meantime you have to deal with a lot of dangerous strikes coming your way.

 

[Spinedoc]

Have you tried doing that with an experienced boxer?

In my experience, a skilled boxer will close the distance using footwork that allows him to maintain a solid base while punching without overextending. If you change the range in an attempt to make him overextend, he will adjust his footwork to compensate. He will also be prepared for counterstrikes (atemi) and will be difficult to hit and will be less prone than most people to compromise his position even if you do manage to hit him.

Some high level boxers will use footwork and psychology to lure their opponents into overextending, although they punish the overextension with a counter-punch rather than an aiki throw. It takes time to make that work against a skilled opponent though. In the meantime you have to deal with a lot of dangerous strikes coming your way.

Actually, I've played around a little with my friend who won the Golden Gloves boxing title back in Ohio in the late 80's...I boxed with him back then, and usually lost.. It's really, really hard to get him to commit. To be honest, I simply wouldn't fight someone like that with my bare hands. I'd use a weapon. There are times when any unarmed approach is simply untenable....but that's my opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you tried doing that with an experienced boxer?

In my experience, a skilled boxer will close the distance using footwork that allows him to maintain a solid base while punching without overextending. If you change the range in an attempt to make him overextend, he will adjust his footwork to compensate. He will also be prepared for counterstrikes (atemi) and will be difficult to hit and will be less prone than most people to compromise his position even if you do manage to hit him.

Some high level boxers will use footwork and psychology to lure their opponents into overextending, although they punish the overextension with a counter-punch rather than an aiki throw. It takes time to make that work against a skilled opponent though. In the meantime you have to deal with a lot of dangerous strikes coming your way.

A good example of what I said earlier. With an opponent like that, we get into the kinds of takedowns you see in MMA, for obvious reasons. The more skilled they are, the more likely they are to only commit weight when they see a huge opening. There's an iconic picture of Ali far over-extended into a punch, probably at a moment when there was little risk of being countered, because he'd already put the opponent on his heels with a previous punch. An experienced striker - even one without grappling experience - naturally reserves weight because it keeps more options open and gives him a way to counter quickly. That takes away many of the otherwise-easy methods of leading him into an aiki technique.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that some of the ways people counter takedowns can leave them open to an aiki technique. I'm not sure if it's a flaw in the approach of the individual or a truism of some takedown counters, but I remember some instances of someone preventing a takedown I was trying, but ending up with a big enough "void" for me to drop into aiki-mode. It has been rare, and I keep hoping a student will do that during class so I can explore what really happened, because I didn't stop to do so at the time.

 

[Flying Crane]

V

Where do you recommend?

Visit some schools perhaps, and see what actually goes on, instead of what is isolated for posting on YouTube.

And yeah, some of those will be bad too.

Are you open to the possibility of seeing something that is good, even if what you see challenges your notions of what fighting/combat/self-defense ought to look like?