How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Spinedoc]

This is something I'm experimenting with right now in NGA. I've taught a few counters to white belts, and will continue to increase the number. I'm looking to find the point at which they seem to be actually ready for them. I didn't start picking them up in any quantity until probably ikkyu (brown belt, just before black), and I think they can start earlier. One thing I'm doing is using simple counters (things like putting a foot in a position that makes the technique a bad choice) to make them change techniques mid-stream. Of course, to practice this, they have to practice that simple counter. So, even though I'm not teaching a counter, I'm teaching a counter. Next comes full counter-techniques.

Well, speaking for our dojo, we practice kaeshi and henka waza on occasion, and the junior students are expected to practice it as well (we only have one practice, it's not divided into advanced or regular or anything like that)...so even 6th kyu might be shown them. The problem is retention. Our Sensei expects them to practice, but doesn't really expect to call a student below 2nd kyu up to demonstrate them. The brain can only focus on so many things, and I know that he has said that junior students can be shown them, but usually won't retain them, because they are still focusing on the basic technique itself. At higher levels, however, he expects you to be able to make them work, and to remember them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, speaking for our dojo, we practice kaeshi and henka waza on occasion, and the junior students are expected to practice it as well (we only have one practice, it's not divided into advanced or regular or anything like that)...so even 6th kyu might be shown them. The problem is retention. Our Sensei expects them to practice, but doesn't really expect to call a student below 2nd kyu up to demonstrate them. The brain can only focus on so many things, and I know that he has said that junior students can be shown them, but usually won't retain them, because they are still focusing on the basic technique itself. At higher levels, however, he expects you to be able to make them work, and to remember them.

That was my experience in retention, too. However, I take a different approach to teaching the techniques, and am curious if it makes the principles of the counters easier to incorporate or not. Thus far, I've seen no evidence of a difference, but I'm early in the process.

 

[Steve]

That's still not "most". I've put up maybe 10 hours of video on YouTube in the last year. I've experienced a lot more hours than that. I know many people who never put up videos. Much still doesn't make it.

That said, your point is a good one. There is so much on YouTube that any claim for which there isn't support there seems extraordinary, whether it actually is or not.

I never suggested "most". I said "some." That other was a peculiar kind of straw man from an alternate reality where I wanted to post videos of my bowel movements. Let me assure you, I do not.

 

[Steve]

No. A DVD would mean the possibility of it ending up on YouTube. What part of "secret" didn't you get??

Exactly the point. Try as you might, you can't keep anything off of YouTube. Will EVERYONE post videos of their lazer eye self defense? No. Will at least ONE person post the videos? Absolutely.

 

[Flying Crane]

Exactly the point. Try as you might, you can't keep anything off of YouTube. Will EVERYONE post videos of their lazer eye self defense? No. Will at least ONE person post the videos? Absolutely.

True.

However, if a thousand people have it, or even a hundred or even ten, and only one posts, you only have one example. The guy may be good, bad, or indifferent, but that's just him. As good, bad, or indifferent he may be typical, or he may be an exception. But you don't know what the others are doing, you can't judge the whole from the limited example youve seen.

I'll keep saying it, while a lot of stuff gets onto YouTube, much much more does not, and we never see what else is going on.

You can judge what you see. I don't even have a problem if you say "everything I've seen of XYZ has been junk, I would never train it and I would never recommend it, based on what I've seen". Sure that's fine. But don't pretend you know all about it, because whatever you've seen is a tiny fraction of what is actually out there.

 

[Flying Crane]

I never suggested "most". I said "some." That other was a peculiar kind of straw man from an alternate reality where I wanted to post videos of my bowel movements. Let me assure you, I do not.

I'm glad you didn't. I did a search to make sure, before I brought that into the discussion. Glad I didn't find anything.

Of course it might be on a different site from YouTube...

 

[drop bear]

True.

However, if a thousand people have it, or even a hundred or even ten, and only one posts, you only have one example. The guy may be good, bad, or indifferent, but that's just him. As good, bad, or indifferent he may be typical, or he may be an exception. But you don't know what the others are doing, you can't judge the whole from the limited example youve seen.

I'll keep saying it, while a lot of stuff gets onto YouTube, much much more does not, and we never see what else is going on.

You can judge what you see. I don't even have a problem if you say "everything I've seen of XYZ has been junk, I would never train it and I would never recommend it, based on what I've seen". Sure that's fine. But don't pretend you know all about it, because whatever you've seen is a tiny fraction of what is actually out there.

Ok then here is an idea. If i say there is bad akido out there then it is my responsibility to provide evidence.

If you say otherwise you can provide evidence.

I will invent this idea called the burden of proof. And we can use it like a little rule during arguments.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok then here is an idea. If i say there is bad akido out there then it is my responsibility to provide evidence.

If you say otherwise you can provide evidence.

I will invent this idea called the burden of proof. And we can use it like a little rule during arguments.

Of course, there's an inherent difficulty in this, when we're talking about effective self-defense. The only full-on evidence would be videos of it being used for self-defense, and that's not something someone can provide on demand. The video either exists or it doesn't, but lack of proof is not proof of lack.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok then here is an idea. If i say there is bad akido out there then it is my responsibility to provide evidence.

If you say otherwise you can provide evidence.

I will invent this idea called the burden of proof. And we can use it like a little rule during arguments.

You can say there is bad aikido, and I agree. I said as much in an earlier post in this thread. I witnessed it, a school that left me unimpressed.

Once again tho, not everything in life makes it into YouTube. I guess I have to keep saying it. There is good aikido out there. I'm sorry you have been unable to see it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like to look at a MA system this way. Does this MA system have methods to

- "develop" a certain skill?
- "test" a certain skill?
- "polish" a certain skill?
- "enhance" a certain skill?

 

[Steve]

You can say there is bad aikido, and I agree. I said as much in an earlier post in this thread. I witnessed it, a school that left me unimpressed.

Once again tho, not everything in life makes it into YouTube. I guess I have to keep saying it. There is good aikido out there. I'm sorry you have been unable to see it.

We have a consensus that there is bad aikido. Is there good Aikido?

 

[drop bear]

Of course, there's an inherent difficulty in this, when we're talking about effective self-defense. The only full-on evidence would be videos of it being used for self-defense, and that's not something someone can provide on demand. The video either exists or it doesn't, but lack of proof is not proof of lack.

Yeah but you base a claim on what you can prove. Not what you can,t.

 

[Flying Crane]

We have a consensus that there is bad aikido. Is there good Aikido?

Of course.

Is it your belief that there is actually none? That the method offers nothing useful for self defense or fighting?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but you base a claim on what you can prove. Not what you can,t.

You base a conclusion on the best evidence you can provide. There are plenty of claims made in science that do not yet have proof, but which have sufficient evidence to make them reasonable. Those are the claims that produce the best research. The same is true in any area. Just because one cannot prove something doesn't mean there's no evidence to support it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We have a consensus that there is bad aikido. Is there good Aikido?

There is. I've experienced Aikido that worked on reasonably realistic attacks.

 

[Steve]

Of course.

Is it your belief that there is actually none? That the method offers nothing useful for self defense or fighting?

I don't know. I am an aikido agnostic, I guess.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well, if you don't train Aikido and do not really find it as your thing then frankly who care's. (not directed at you Steve just people in general) Really guys, if you do not want to train Aikido then why are you carrying on like this? You don't like the training method. Okay, that is your choice and your opinon. However, to sit here thread after thread goin on about how this system or that system doesn't do this or that or doesn't train alive gets really old.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know. I am an aikido agnostic, I guess.

Then I guess your position is predetermined.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then I guess your position is predetermined.

How is "agnostic" (which means "unknown" or "unknowable") the same as "predetermined"?

 

[Steve]

How is "agnostic" (which means "unknown" or "unknowable") the same as "predetermined"?

This is right. Agnostic is more precisely a religious term, but this is exactly what I was getting at. So there good aikido? I can guess so, but from the outside, I'm told that if I want to know for sure, I have to join the church.... Err.... I mean, train in the system. It's set up so that the lack of independent evidence is explained away. In the same way I can't prove God doesn't persist, therefore God must exist... At least according to some. And to be clear, good aikido meaning good for self defense, which is the context of this thread.