Hosinsul

[puunui]

I'm somewhat suprised to see you refer to this as a "problem", since you've indicated in the past that you've done the very same thing any number of times with KKW Dan certificates. If it's a problem, why do you do it?

Try reading the part that I quoted, and not just what I wrote to understand what I was responding to. Master Weiss' hypothesis is that Kukki Taekwondo has looser standards but that led to large growth and that ITF on the other hand had stricter standards but that may have limited growth. The "problem" regarding his hypothesis, is that General Choi gave rank based on looser standards as well, and I gave some examples. The "problem" is not grandfathering in taekwondo practitioners who are using other curriculum into kukki taekwondo, in much the same way that houses built on a different set of standards from an older era need not be torn down simply because they fail to comply with today's building codes.

Does that answer your question?

 

[puunui]

If you get a chance I would be interested in knowing the name, date, and Dan # on the certificate. If you don't wish to put it on the web you can send it privately.

I'll email you the name. I don't know the date or the certificate number. One of my students was training with this person and helped him move, and during the course of that, saw his ITF taekwondo certificate. He still lives here.

 

[mastercole]

GM KIM Soo Jin from Atlanta, Georgia, who is one of the most senior Jidokwan members or the senior Jidokwan member in the US, says the school name was Kwon Bup Bu. So did GM LEE Chong Woo in at least one interview:

“It was right after the Liberation. I suppose it was a dream of my adolescence around the age of seventeen, and I had the vague hope of becoming an unbeatable martial artist. When I heard there was a particular place in So-Gong-Dong, Seoul where they could train someone in the 18th method [known as a
Chinese form of martial arts] I went there. It was a Judo school during the Japanese occupation period, and they used to put out a sign saying, ‘Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan’ in which they had a Judo Division and Kwon Bup Division. From then on, I learned Karate in the Kwon Bup Division. Kwon Bup is the same as Japanese Karate. Since the national pride was concerned, we called it Kwon Bup instead of calling it Japanese Karate.” -- GM LEE Chong Woo

“In the beginning, Judo was the major martial art course at Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan with a small section of Kwon Bup in it. However, the Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan was put into service during the Korean War. Byung Suk Lee, the President of Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan was a nationalist. So, people in the Kwon Bup Division moved out of the center to another location due to the delicate political circumstances. The Korea Gymnasium, which was located at Ulgiro 3rd Street, was then
the site of the Ji Do Kwan.”

“It took me over a year to become a first degree black belt, then 2nd degree black belt and 3rd degree black belt, and then the Korean War broke out. By the time Seoul was liberated, I was going to test for 4th degree black belt, but I had to have appendix surgery. So, I received my 4th degree black belt through a
recommendation while others took the performance test. After the Association was established, I received a 9th degree black belt. At the beginning, I received the 1st degree black belt in Kwon Bup and then I became a 9th degree black belt in Taekwondo. The name changed.”




I asked GM LEE Chong Woo directly in his office at the Kukkiwon way back when, and he told me the name was "Chosun Yun Moo Kwan Taekwondo Bu". He even wrote it out for me on a piece of paper which I still have.

Certainly. I have even seen within a same interview where the words Kwonbop and Kong Soo Do are used interchangeably. Also in Funakoshi's writings, he has used the same words (kenpo & karate) interchangeably to refer to what he does. Just like seniors will speak of Taekwondo and ancient Korean martial arts in an interchangeable way, like GM Lee saying to you "Taekwondo Bu" and like some seniors will call Taekkyon as Taekwondo. I guess it is like us saying boxing, fisticuffs or duking it out, we know it means punching, others might not.

But exactly how it was phrased, or if it was exactly phrased at all, I don't know for sure. I do know that GM Kyo Yoon Lee specifically told me that Kong Soo Do was not in the name.

From time to time some people recommend that I go through the TaekwondoJidokwan.com website and "clean up and unify" the spelling of Korean to English terms, or edit certain words to clarify the true meaning. I have not done that, I let it stand as it was published, pretty much for this reason.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'll email you the name. I don't know the date or the certificate number. One of my students was training with this person and helped him move, and during the course of that, saw his ITF taekwondo certificate. He still lives here.

Well, if someone could get a look at the date and # that would be great. I'd like to see how he fits in with the chronology of other 6th Dans. From time to time tere ahve been issues with bogus certificates. Not saying his is. I think Iceman on this board was one I know of that was involved with such an issue. Some certs were clearly bogus. Others were issued by ITF personnel and not logged properly. I think ITF made good on those when time came for the next rank. You gave an interesting reason for te Woo Jin Jung. Cert. Any idea why this guy got one?

 

[puunui]

You gave an interesting reason for te Woo Jin Jung. Cert. Any idea why this guy got one?

I think it may have been because he had Shudokan dan rank certification from Sensei TOYAMA Kanken prior to his taekwondo "involvement". He's still alive and still teaching I think. Maybe I can go visit his class and ask him about it.