Hosinsul

[puunui]

mastercole knows more about jidokwan history than i do. He can answer who number one is.

 

[mastercole]

Hoshinsul term is now mom-makki. Mom-makki is like the applications of Poomsae and in some cases the same. They both are open to creativity and individual interpretation. Mom-makki can be anything from a release from a chock, to avoiding a strike by shifting the body, to counter attack. It is considered individual research, just like Poomsae applications.

 

[mastercole]

Thank you for the clarification, you are much closer to the original sources than I am. I'll have to check back with my sources, I thought that YON kwai Byeong was listed as dan bon #1 under the Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bup Bu according to the Modern History of Taekwondo, but I was going from memory on that.. .

Jidokwan was unlike other Kwan in that it did not matter when a person was listed in the Dan register, the actual Dan rank mattered. Practitioners could pass others in seniority in the dojang if they passed them in Dan rank.

GM PAE Yong Ki was Jidokwan student #1 and no one ever passed him. He trained with GM Chun before GM Chun started his club at the Judo school.

GM YON Kwai Byeong might have actually out ranked GM Chun. We don't know what Dan GM Chun held from Funakoshi Sensei, but we hear about GM YON being listed as a Shihan (Sabum) in Yoyama Sensei's book. We do not believe that GM Chun was a Shihan under Funaloshi Sensei.

GM Chun hired GM YON Kwai Byeong as a Sabum right after GM YOON Byung In left that same job to open his own club called the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu (Chang Moo Kwan). GM Yon and GM Chun learned their karate from different teachers.

As for the name of GM Chun's karate club, I get two different answers from the seniors that actually trained there. GM LEE Kyo Yoon states "Chosun yunmookwan kwonbop bu." He is the only one that has told me that directly. However, he called his Han Moo Kwan the Kong Soo Do Bu when he first opened it.

My teachers - teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo the main proponent of Jidokwan, tells me that it was called "Chosun yunmookwan kong soo do bu." Other seniors have told me the same. My teacher, GM CHONG Chun Sup told that that it was called "Chosun yunmookwan kwonbop kong soo do bu."

 

[Earl Weiss]

What I mean by "pure TKD" (and I don't really want to get hung up on semantic terms here) is that I'm presupposing that once there was an art called TKD there must have been originally a set of guidelines that one must know or have mastered to have recieved rank in "Tae Kwon Do".

.

As stated by others and as I should have stated better; that while some Kwans resisted, some longer than others they may (or did as stated by some) agree to come under the KKW flag.

Now your supposition about an original set of guidelines is correct but problematic as well. When the unification efforts started one of the things that General Choi did was impose testing / retesting requirements for all but Chung Do Kwan Black belts (maybe another Kwan as well but I forget. ) The reason was due to the large variations among the different Kwan BBs. This PO'd a lot of people, having their rank questioned and having to re test.

For many years you could be doing any number of pattern systems and get a Dan Ceritficate thru the KKW. (I will leave it to Glenn and Master Cole to elaborate on current requirements.) So, there was no uniformity as to the system let alone Ho Sin Sul. This was the greates strength of the KKW, the inclusivenss, yet to an extent a weakness since you could have a KKW Dan certificate, and go to another KKW gym and not have a clue what their pattern system was. The ITF was a closed system in that they only recognized their system for rank. TYhis was the greatest strength yet, being closed to offshoots was it's gretaest weakness.

Finished Steve Jobs Biography. Could not help but see parallels between Jobs theory of Apple Hardwre and Software, and General Choi as compared to Bill Gates and Microsoft and the KKW.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The Oh Do Kwan did teach the old karate kata initially. But Gen. Choi began developing his tul rather early. There were three patterns developed by/in 1955 (Hwa-Rang, Choong-Moo, and Ul-Ji). Ge-Baek was developed in 1961. Sixteen more patterns were finished by 1962. Four more were finished by 1972 and Ju-Che, the last pattern to be developed was done sometime prior to 1985.

So, it depends on what you mean by "later." The Oh Do Kwan was founded in 1954. By the next year he had three new tul. Gen. Choi's philosophy on why there are 24 patterns is interesting and you don't just dash off two dozen of them. It takes a while to develop.Pax,

Chris

The main goal of forming the 29th Infantry division and the Oh Do Kwan was to recruit top martial art talent to develop a unify ssystem, develop instructors for that system and then help dispatch people to demonstrate and spread the system. Since the CDK was the largest gym and the heaviest population of the ODK it was only natural that CDK material would be what was initialy used.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Oh Do Kwan did teach the old karate kata initially. But Gen. Choi began developing his tul rather early. There were three patterns developed by/in 1955 (Hwa-Rang, Choong-Moo, and Ul-Ji). Ge-Baek was developed in 1961. Sixteen more patterns were finished by 1962. Four more were finished by 1972 and Ju-Che, the last pattern to be developed was done sometime prior to 1985.

So, it depends on what you mean by "later." The Oh Do Kwan was founded in 1954. By the next year he had three new tul. Gen. Choi's philosophy on why there are 24 patterns is interesting and you don't just dash off two dozen of them. It takes a while to develop. If you look through the various editions of his textbooks you can see changes that Gen. Choi made in patterns he had already developed besides just coming up with new ones.

Pax,

Chris

That is what I meant by later; the CKD and SMK opened their doors in 1944, and from what I understand, most of the Oh Do Kwan were CDK practitioners. I was thinking in terms of 1944 marking the beginning of the kwan era, with General Choi beginning to develop the Chang Hon system in the fifties.

It seems from what you say that the Chang Hon System was developed over a period from 1955 to 1985. I'm not sure of the exact date that the Taegeuk pumse were introduced, but I had thought it to be in the early to mid seventies, and I do not know when the yudanja pumse were finalized.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hoshinsul term is now mom-makki. Mom-makki is like the applications of Poomsae and in some cases the same. They both are open to creativity and individual interpretation. Mom-makki can be anything from a release from a chock, to avoiding a strike by shifting the body, to counter attack. It is considered individual research, just like Poomsae applications.

Mom makki; body defense if I am not mistaken.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Jidokwan was unlike other Kwan in that it did not matter when a person was listed in the Dan register, the actual Dan rank mattered. Practitioners could pass others in seniority in the dojang if they passed them in Dan rank.

GM PAE Yong Ki was Jidokwan student #1 and no one ever passed him. He trained with GM Chun before GM Chun started his club at the Judo school.

GM YON Kwai Byeong might have actually out ranked GM Chun. We don't know what Dan GM Chun held from Funakoshi Sensei, but we hear about GM YON being listed as a Shihan (Sabum) in Yoyama Sensei's book. We do not believe that GM Chun was a Shihan under Funaloshi Sensei.

GM Chun hired GM YON Kwai Byeong as a Sabum right after GM YOON Byung In left that same job to open his own club called the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu (Chang Moo Kwan). GM Yon and GM Chun learned their karate from different teachers.

As for the name of GM Chun's karate club, I get two different answers from the seniors that actually trained there. GM LEE Kyo Yoon states "Chosun yunmookwan kwonbop bu." He is the only one that has told me that directly. However, he called his Han Moo Kwan the Kong Soo Do Bu when he first opened it.

My teachers - teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo the main proponent of Jidokwan, tells me that it was called "Chosun yunmookwan kong soo do bu." Other seniors have told me the same. My teacher, GM CHONG Chun Sup told that that it was called "Chosun yunmookwan kwonbop kong soo do bu."

Thank you very much sir for the "clarification." While I'm not a historian, I do find Taekwondo's history fascinating. **As a side note, I'm on my second read of the article you sent me, and I will be getting back to you shortly about my thoughts, thank you very much!**

 

[FizzyCal]

From some research that I did last night, it is believed that a few of the kwans, such as Kong Soo Do (Tang Soo Do) did in fact include their own hosinsule. And is believed that Gen. Choi studied Hapkido under Master Chung Ki Tae in 1972 and later incorporated some of those concepts as hosinsul. So other than a few exceptions in individual kwans, hosinsul was something added later to TKD and is essentially Hapkido. Then again, maybe it depends on where the information comes from.

Just trying to figure out what is and is not TKD. My obsessive nature makes me do it. So while trying to separate what we do in class as TKD concepts or other MA concepts, it seems that it really doesn't matter if it comes from Hapkido, Silat, Jiu Jitsu, or Philipino styles. But that the important thing is that some grappling and joint locking is incorporated into the training.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

From some research that I did last night, it is believed that a few of the kwans, such as Kong Soo Do (Tang Soo Do) did in fact include their own hosinsule. And is believed that Gen. Choi studied Hapkido under Master Chung Ki Tae in 1972 and later incorporated some of those concepts as hosinsul. So other than a few exceptions in individual kwans, hosinsul was something added later to TKD and is essentially Hapkido. Then again, maybe it depends on where the information comes from.

I know that the Chang Hon Hoshinsul was culled from hapkido, but Earl or Chris probably could give you more specifics.

Just trying to figure out what is and is not TKD. My obsessive nature makes me do it. So while trying to separate what we do in class as TKD concepts or other MA concepts, it seems that it really doesn't matter if it comes from Hapkido, Silat, Jiu Jitsu, or Philipino styles. But that the important thing is that some grappling and joint locking is incorporated into the training.

If you want to know what is and is not taekwondo, pick up a Kukkiwon textbook. I'd also say to pick up an ITF textbook, but the ITF 'text book' is a sixteen volume encyclopedia set from what I understand. Certainly worth picking up if you want to delve deeper into Chang Hon taekwondo, but if your main interest is separating taekwondo from whatever else, the KKW book will do nicely.

While there are stylistic differences an some terminology differences, from what I've gathered from conversation with ITF folks, the technical set minus hoshinsul is pretty analogous and probably not all that radically different from the kwan era. The main differences between kwan era TKD and modern era would be the way in which the techniques are practiced, as a lot of refinement has taken place over the past fifty to sixty years as a result of competition and continual improvement.

But, as Chris pointed out, Chang Hon's last pattern was introduced in 1985. I'm not sure when Kukkiwon taekwondo was finalized, but it was post 1970. The word, taekwondo, was coined in, I think, 1954. Prior to that, there was no uniform, codified standard. You had five schools doing whatever they were doing. The oh do kwan was mostly CDK members and the unification effort was only just beginning.

So the idea that pre-unification taekwondo was more 'pure' is a falacy; it didn't exist, though the term, 'taekwondo' was retrofitted to both kwan era KMA and all pre-occupation unarmed KMA. As an art, taekwondo is a modern art that was pioneered in the fifties, sixties, and seventies. If you want 'pure' taekwondo, you need to go to the sources. The art is very young as martial arts go; less than a century, and it wasn't fully developed until about 25-35 years ago.

Just to make it clear, I think that it is great that you are asking trying to gain knowledge into the art's origins. I hope that I don't come across as looking down my nose at you.

 

[Instructor]

Martial arts are constantly in a state of flux and change. The best you can hope for in finding 'purity' is simply a snapshot of a certain school at a certain time, but it is only a snapshot. If you put it into motion the way it is in reality you will see a dynamic environment whereupon each is learning from the other and the whole amalgam grows.

The interesting thing I think is to find the reasons behind the various techniques, how they came to be.

 

[puunui]

As for the name of GM Chun's karate club, I get two different answers from the seniors that actually trained there. GM LEE Kyo Yoon states "Chosun yunmookwan kwonbop bu." He is the only one that has told me that directly. However, he called his Han Moo Kwan the Kong Soo Do Bu when he first opened it.

GM KIM Soo Jin from Atlanta, Georgia, who is one of the most senior Jidokwan members or the senior Jidokwan member in the US, says the school name was Kwon Bup Bu. So did GM LEE Chong Woo in at least one interview:

“It was right after the Liberation. I suppose it was a dream of my adolescence around the age of seventeen, and I had the vague hope of becoming an unbeatable martial artist. When I heard there was a particular place in So-Gong-Dong, Seoul where they could train someone in the 18th method [known as a
Chinese form of martial arts] I went there. It was a Judo school during the Japanese occupation period, and they used to put out a sign saying, ‘Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan’ in which they had a Judo Division and Kwon Bup Division. From then on, I learned Karate in the Kwon Bup Division. Kwon Bup is the same as Japanese Karate. Since the national pride was concerned, we called it Kwon Bup instead of calling it Japanese Karate.” -- GM LEE Chong Woo

“In the beginning, Judo was the major martial art course at Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan with a small section of Kwon Bup in it. However, the Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan was put into service during the Korean War. Byung Suk Lee, the President of Chosun Yeon Mu Kwan was a nationalist. So, people in the Kwon Bup Division moved out of the center to another location due to the delicate political circumstances. The Korea Gymnasium, which was located at Ulgiro 3rd Street, was then
the site of the Ji Do Kwan.”

“It took me over a year to become a first degree black belt, then 2nd degree black belt and 3rd degree black belt, and then the Korean War broke out. By the time Seoul was liberated, I was going to test for 4th degree black belt, but I had to have appendix surgery. So, I received my 4th degree black belt through a
recommendation while others took the performance test. After the Association was established, I received a 9th degree black belt. At the beginning, I received the 1st degree black belt in Kwon Bup and then I became a 9th degree black belt in Taekwondo. The name changed.”

My teachers - teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo the main proponent of Jidokwan, tells me that it was called "Chosun yunmookwan kong soo do bu."

I asked GM LEE Chong Woo directly in his office at the Kukkiwon way back when, and he told me the name was "Chosun Yun Moo Kwan Taekwondo Bu". He even wrote it out for me on a piece of paper which I still have.

 

[puunui]

For many years you could be doing any number of pattern systems and get a Dan Ceritficate thru the KKW. (I will leave it to Glenn and Master Cole to elaborate on current requirements.) So, there was no uniformity as to the system let alone Ho Sin Sul. This was the greates strength of the KKW, the inclusivenss, yet to an extent a weakness since you could have a KKW Dan certificate, and go to another KKW gym and not have a clue what their pattern system was. The ITF was a closed system in that they only recognized their system for rank. This was the greatest strength yet, being closed to offshoots was it's gretaest weakness.

The problem with that is that General Choi handed out ITF dan certificates to people who did not learn his system and did not adhere to ITF standards. For example, there is a shotokan dan holder here who was given an ITF 6th Dan certificate, even though he did not have ANY taekwondo training whatsoever. GM JUNG Woo Jin (from Taekwondo Times) gave General Choi and other pioneers a $500/month pension and for that General Choi promoted GM Jung to ITF 9th Dan, and not because of his knowledge (or lack thereof) of sinewave, for example. And what about the promotions of GM Chuck Norris and I believe GM Bob Wall to ITF 8th Dan? Do they have any knowledge or experience with the ITF system?

 

[Earl Weiss]

.

It seems from what you say that the Chang Hon System was developed over a period from 1955 to 1985..

Almost. The nucleus of the sytems is the patterns. The first 20 appear in the 1965 English text. I have heard that there may have been an earlier Korean one. By the time the 1972 text was published 4 morre patterns were in it. Ju Che replaced Ko Dang. As Mr. Spiller says it was before 1985. It appears in the first encyclopedia. This was published in 1983 I believe . I woiuld have to check. Although the Encyclopedia contains some refinements and expansions, it added little to the system as a whole as compared to the 1972 text.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The problem with that is that General Choi handed out ITF dan certificates to people who did not learn his system and did not adhere to ITF standards. For example, there is a shotokan dan holder here who was given an ITF 6th Dan certificate, even though he did not have ANY taekwondo training whatsoever. GM JUNG Woo Jin (from Taekwondo Times) gave General Choi and other pioneers a $500/month pension and for that General Choi promoted GM Jung to ITF 9th Dan, and not because of his knowledge (or lack thereof) of sinewave, for example. And what about the promotions of GM Chuck Norris and I believe GM Bob Wall to ITF 8th Dan? Do they have any knowledge or experience with the ITF system?

I have no first hand knowledge of much of what you say except that for the most part those without knowledge of the Chang Hon system and having ITF Dan certificates are scarce at best.

Specificaly with regard to Chuck Norris, Bob Wall and one other, I do have knowledge of these certicficates which were unnumbered, and either noted as "Special" or "Honorary" in recognition of their contribution to Martial Arts. I remeber when they were announced as such in the ITF Bulletin.

 

[puunui]

Jidokwan was unlike other Kwan in that it did not matter when a person was listed in the Dan register, the actual Dan rank mattered. Practitioners could pass others in seniority in the dojang if they passed them in Dan rank.

This is similar to the KTA standard for seniority: "Inside the dojang, one must use polite language towards the head of the dojang, instructors and his seniors in rank, regardless of their age."

 

[puunui]

Specificaly with regard to Chuck Norris, Bob Wall and one other, I do have knowledge of these certificates which were unnumbered, and either noted as "Special" or "Honorary" in recognition of their contribution to Martial Arts. I remeber when they were announced as such in the ITF Bulletin.

That's not how it was designated on the ITF webpage, which is where I believe I saw it. Is it still up on a webpage somewhere?

 

[Earl Weiss]

there is a shotokan dan holder here who was given an ITF 6th Dan certificate, even though he did not have ANY taekwondo training whatsoever.

If you get a chance I would be interested in knowing the name, date, and Dan # on the certificate. If you don't wish to put it on the web you can send it privately.

 

[Earl Weiss]

That's not how it was designated on the ITF webpage, which is where I believe I saw it. Is it still up on a webpage somewhere?

I think that web page is long gone. Don't recall exactly what it said. I think I read about it in the ITF newsletter.

Friom ITF Newsletter #2 April 2000 " VIII Dan. April 13. Chuck Norris, Bob Chaney, Bob Wall - USA. These were "Special Promotions" at a very important event for the ITF. I recall now that they were a new animal called "Special" because "Honorary" at that time was a maximum of IV Dan.

Even the newsletter had no further explanation. But, since I hosted General Choi in June 2000 I was able to get more details which involved recognizing them for their Martial Arts contributions. There was also mention of Bob Wall producing a documentary on General Choi. I do not know the status of such a project.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The problem with that is that General Choi handed out ITF dan certificates to people who did not learn his system and did not adhere to ITF standards.

I'm somewhat suprised to see you refer to this as a "problem", since you've indicated in the past that you've done the very same thing any number of times with KKW Dan certificates.

If it's a problem, why do you do it?