Honesty the best Policy?

[shesulsa]

Does this person only teach Hwarangdo or do they teach grappling? I bleive if they do it would be best just to keep it to themselves. It just might make others, even though acceptable, feel uncomfortable. My 2 cents.

HRD incorporates judo, grappling, other close-in work as well as joint manipulation and striking techniques...it is a very broad art.

 

[TomakaStud]

HRD incorporates judo, grappling, other close-in work as well as joint manipulation and striking techniques...it is a very broad art.

You're correct but the techniques and extent is truely minimal in comparrison to wrestling and jui jitsu.....that's a fact not an opinion...most of the ground fighting in hwarangdo isn't learned until the later parts or training and even then it does not go as deep and most practitioners don't take there training to the extent of a grappling school (live rolls and dedicated classes to just ground work) perhaps this is different in other schools but no doubt grappling is an extreme minority of the HRD syllablus, until you get to the higher ranks....even then it's questionable how extensive it is.

 

[loki09789]

Yes, Paul, I understand, and I'm not saying this doesn't have its place. Rather, I'm giving the term we use for this method of fishing.

I tend to be leery, however, of this approach and am wondering why it was truly necessary in this format. I realize Yu Sul Man is new to the boards and he very well may be my senior in HRD and I will give him all the respect he is due.

Thanks to all for the opportunity to speak my opinion.

Shesulsa,

Not a problem IMO. Just commenting on the tactical application of 'trickery' in this case. Thanks for the cultural insight regardless of my take on how it was used in this case.

Even when I don't agree with your stance, I recognize that your positions are well intentioned and based on thought and not just knee jerk or 'just because' motivations. Hope it didn't come off as antagonistic towards you.

 

[shesulsa]

You're correct but the techniques and extent is truely minimal in comparrison to wrestling and jui jitsu.....that's a fact not an opinion...most of the ground fighting in hwarangdo isn't learned until the later parts or training and even then it does not go as deep and most practitioners don't take there training to the extent of a grappling school (live rolls and dedicated classes to just ground work) perhaps this is different in other schools but no doubt grappling is an extreme minority of the HRD syllablus, until you get to the higher ranks....even then it's questionable how extensive it is.

This really depends on the teacher. Some teachers have supplemented their HRD syllabus with other art influences, thus those of use who study in this fashion learn more that the strictest HRD syllabus - we are taught to stretch our abilities beyond the syllabus, which is demanding enough in itself.

 

[Yu Sul Man]

Afternoon all

I did not mean to trick anyone it wasnt my intention.It would seem that peoples sexual preference is becoming more accepted in the main stream but in the martial art culture has it ? I can't really tell. Stand up is ok , grappling is not ok I just dont know. Geez.... I have known Instructor X for 12 years and trust him soo much but If I didnt know the person would I be able to send my kids or myself to them????
I don't think I could......(it took me 25 minutes to write this far)
John
And what would I do if my Instructor finally came out after many years of training with him and looking up to him like a father , just out of the blue..???
I don't like this thread anymore it is hurting to write this. I question "If I knew in the begining would I hurt this much?

 

[TomakaStud]

I wasn't stating stand up was ok and grappling was not. I was simply stating what would effect me personally. It's truely a question of "to each his own".

 

[Bob D.]

Tom, check your PM. Bob

 

[Ceicei]

And what would I do if my Instructor finally came out after many years of training with him and looking up to him like a father , just out of the blue..???
I don't like this thread anymore it is hurting to write this. I question "If I knew in the begining would I hurt this much?"

Maybe that is something you need to consider right now even if the situation hasn't happened yet. Take a step back, a deep breath, consider your thoughts, values, and think about what is important to you. Only you can deal with this in your own way because all of us have different backgrounds and views. It is ok to wonder about how others think and feel; remember that we are a diverse lot and are subject to our own opinions.

I would hope, however, that as you think about the "what if" of this situation, you would consider carefully, not just your views, but the view of that instructor, and how this will impact not just you, but his school. Bottom line is to consider his track record. If he has taught so well all along and has had no trouble with the law, and isn't doing anything criminal, his teaching history and his character should stand for itself. If it had caused you no problems or concern in the past, why should it now?

- Ceicei

 

[shesulsa]

I'm a woman and when I grapple with guys, I'm not thinking about a potentially sexual situation. I don't know what the guys are thinking about, but since I'm pretty new to grappling, I'm thinking about whether or not I'm giving him an opening, is this bait or an opening, what will my next chain of moves be, can I think that far ahead, etc.

How would this situation differ other than the fact that you have knowledge you don't really need to have, but do?

I think what you're facing are your fears...stepping outside of your comfort zone...going beyond what you know. Isn't this part of the challenge we face when we grow?

Your friend is a person - first and foremost. Second, he is a martial artist. As Ceicei pointed out, if he is not engaged in criminal activity, then you really, really need to just "fuggetabowtit."

I know heterosexual people who I don't want teaching my children...I'm sure there are homosexual people I wouldn't want teaching my children - but is has nothing to do with their preference.

Peace.

 

[TomakaStud]

"How would this situation differ other than the fact that you have knowledge you don't really need to have, but do?"

i'm not trying to be intollerant whatsoever. Being all tangled up, hot and sweaty with someone who might be looking at me as a possible date (obviously i'm talking about a male opponent)....would make me a bit uncomfortable....i'm saying it's me, not everyone else. Ever heard the phrase knowlege is a burden???? Or what you don't know won't hurt you??? I'd just prefer not to know...

"I'm a woman and when I grapple with guys, I'm not thinking about a potentially sexual situation"

I suppose that's where men and women are different!

...(just kidding, i hope there's still room for some humor in here...)

By stating it would bother ME does not mean he isn't a tallented or skilled grappler. I suppose there are SOME women out there who might feel the same way as i do when rolling with a guy. Obviously YOU don't but others might..... And what if you were rolling with a lesbian? Would you feel uncomfortable? You may not, others would.

"I think what you're facing are your fears...stepping outside of your comfort zone...going beyond what you know. Isn't this part of the challenge we face when we grow?"

Please doctor, don't psycho analyze my sexuality or fears.....My exteme attraction to women and not to men lets me know homosexuality isn't for me without stepping into that box....i don't need to experience it to hold an open mind....I don't want to be like the liberals out there who are so open minded their brains fell out.....If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........

 

[MichiganTKD]

There are some things an Instructor, whatever his rank, is under NO obligation to inform his students about:

1. Sexual orientation
2. Religious preference
3. Voting record
4. Income level

Last time I checked, homosexuality was not a crime. And anybody who would pull their students or themselves out of a class because the Instructor was gay or appeared so needs to grow up.
I've known my Instructor for over 20 years. I can pretty safely say he is not gay. As far as the other three, I honestly don't know. He has never discussed them with us and we never asked. He never asks us about those topics either. Too much mutual respect.

 

[Ceicei]

...If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe homosexual peeople are so preoccupied with thinking about sex? FYI, most homosexuals aren't going to be thinking sex any more than a heterosexual person would. They are generally people who lead regular lives focused with making a living through their jobs.

- Ceicei

 

[SenseiBear]

I personally dont want my young son to be taught by a person that is homosexual. It is my choice. But the instructor is not giving people that chocice if he is not up front with it

It is none of my business of their sexual preference but I have the right to know who is involved in my life and my kids life. I think all parents out there would agree.

there are 4 pages of responses, so I'm sure this has already been said.

Your issue is that you are homophobic. You might think you aren't, because you "get along with them fine" but you are. Gay men and women aren't out "turning" anyones kids gay. They won't catch it like a disease. Most pedophiles are straight men. Even the ones that rape and molest little boys.

Some people consider alcohol evil. Do you make sure to tell students/parents if you drink in your spare time? Some consider sodomy (which includes all oral sex) evil and perverse. Should all instructors notify parents and students if they have engaged in oral sex?

If this instructors sexuality had any bearing on his ability to teach, you might have a right to complain. but it doesn't. Not even children. More danger taking them to church.

SB

 

[SenseiBear]

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe homosexual peeople are so preoccupied with thinking about sex? FYI, most homosexuals aren't going to be thinking sex any more than a heterosexual person would. They are generally people who lead regular lives focused with making a living through their jobs.

- Ceicei

I would say this is a case of transference. Tomka, when rolling with a woman, DOES think about sexual issues. He therefore assumes that a gay man will do the same thing, and has an illogical reaction.

(maybe based on the fear that the gay man might act on it? perhaps because he wants to act on his feelings?)

(since he asked not to have his fears psycho-analyzed, I felt it needed to be done...)

(wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say no more.)

 

[shesulsa]

i'm not trying to be intollerant whatsoever. Being all tangled up, hot and sweaty with someone who might be looking at me as a possible date (obviously i'm talking about a male opponent)....would make me a bit uncomfortable....

I'm sure there are few gay men who are looking at you as a potential date - or even one-night stand.

I'd just prefer not to know...

I'm sure that's the way they prefer it too.

And what if you were rolling with a lesbian? Would you feel uncomfortable?

Done it. Nope, I didn't. She didn't find me attractive in the least.

Please doctor, don't psycho analyze my sexuality or fears.....My exteme attraction to women and not to men lets me know homosexuality isn't for me without stepping into that box....

1. Are you insinuating that I suggest you try a homosexual experience? I'm not - I was addressing Yu Sul Man, but I find your response titillating. I was speaking of being afraid of grappelling with a gay man. Who knows? Perhaps you already have.

2. I am not trying to insult anyone or name call here, please don't do that to me. We really can have an intelligent conversation about this without getting overheated.

....I don't want to be like the liberals out there who are so open minded their brains fell out.....

There are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't know where to begin, but let's just leave it as being :-offtopic

If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........

Your statements belie that you believe all gays, regardless of station or relationship to you want to "rub pelvises" with you. This is a very egotistical position, don't you think? I'm not trying to be condescending or insulting, but...really? What if I thought all lesbians wanted to rub pelvises with me? Isn't that a little self-serving and ... assuming?

Really, now.

 

[glad2bhere]

This may, or may not be the same thing--- but we are talking about self-disclosure.

If a student has the desire to learn a martial art in order to be a better terrorist, need that person share this with his teachers? For instance, suppose a person enrolls in a Hapkido school so as to learn close quarters fighting that would help him comandeer an airline with greater success. Is he expected to disclose his motives before taking the classes? Is the teacher required to help this student grow after the manner that student selects? Is the teacher required to turn the student in IF that student discloses such motives? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Although I see that your post is about disclosure, I really don't think terrorism and homosexuality are comparible. However, I think everything is up to an instructor to find out. Surely teaching a known terrorist is irresponsible. Is teaching a homosexual irresponsible?

There's disclosure and then there's disclosure.

 

[Tkang_TKD]

Please doctor, don't psycho analyze my sexuality or fears.....My exteme attraction to women and not to men lets me know homosexuality isn't for me without stepping into that box....i don't need to experience it to hold an open mind....I don't want to be like the liberals out there who are so open minded their brains fell out.....If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........

Why is a liberal viewpoint considered to be so deviant? Also, isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that someone gay would want to "rub pelvis' " with you?

Incidentally, I'm totally straight (not that it matters), and I've never even considered the idea that the person engaged in combat (sport or otherwise) might think of me as a sexual toy. Maybe I'm just more concerned with whether or not they're gonna lay a hurtin on my

 

[MichiganTKD]

Although I see that your post is about disclosure, I really don't think terrorism and homosexuality are comparible. However, I think everything is up to an instructor to find out. Surely teaching a known terrorist is irresponsible. Is teaching a homosexual irresponsible?

There's disclosure and then there's disclosure.

I tend to think teaching a homosexual self defense would be beneficial, for him anyway. Homosexuals tend to be targeted more and looked down upon more in our society. It seems to me it would make sense for them to know martial arts. And since I tend to sympathize with the underdog, it wouldn't bother me to teach TKD to a known homosexual. Assuming he wants to learn for self defense as opposed to revenge.

 

[shesulsa]

I tend to think teaching a homosexual self defense would be beneficial, for him anyway. Homosexuals tend to be targeted more and looked down upon more in our society. It seems to me it would make sense for them to know martial arts. And since I tend to sympathize with the underdog, it wouldn't bother me to teach TKD to a known homosexual. Assuming he wants to learn for self defense as opposed to revenge.

Agreed. Here is another faction of society that is often bashed if out, open or even suspected. Watch out, though - these potential victims just want to rub pelvises with everyone else their same gender!