Home Depot worker fired for wearing 'under God' button

[Bob Hubbard]

Home Depot worker fired for wearing 'under God' button -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel.comSource: www.sun-sentinel.com
OKEECHOBEE - Trevor Keezer didn't start working at The Home Depot to make a religious statement. He just wanted to earn money for college."I want to go to school to become a nurse," said the 20-year-old ...

Craig Fishel, a spokesman for The Home Depot, said he could not comment on specific personnel issues, but added, "The company's dress code policy states that we do not allow noncompany buttons, regardless of their message or content."

Fishel says Home Depot has a "proud history" of supporting the military, and that it sanctions several of its own buttons for employees to wear, including one that reads: "United We Stand."

Keezer said he preferred to wear his button because "you can't have country without God. Every pin they showed me had no 'God' on it or anything."

Fishel says the company gives employees several warnings when they violate the dress policy before terminating them.

But Keezer says, "It never crossed my mind to take off the button because I'm standing for something that's bigger than I am. They kept telling me the severity of what you're doing and I just let God be in control and went with His plan."

Argument on Facebook, some idiots are claiming the US is a Christian nation, that this violates the employee's Constitutional Rights, etc.

Nope.

The guy violated the official company dress code. The fact that his previous manager let it slide, doesn't change the fact that he violated the company policy, one that he agreed to follow I'm sure, as a condition to his employment. Break the rules, pay the price. This isn't about his "freedoms". Every work place has certain policies. I'm sure if anyone here decided to show up for work wearing that same button, they'd get an earful and not be allowed to wear it either. It's not violating his religious freedom, freedom of speech, etc. when you agree to the terms in advance. I'd have fired him too, since he was given it seems -8- chances to comply with his agreement which is 5 more than I'd have granted. He (the fired idiot) decided to break his agreement, and now pays for it. He has the nerve to reject his responsibility an claim it was "Gods Plan". I'm sure God is looking at this and going "Stupid". "Gods Plan" my ***.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Copying an argument in.
=====

The Constitution allows us to worship as we please. It doesn't allow us to do as we please however. Personal responsibility for one's actions is a dying thing. The company policy didn't stop him from being a Christian, praying, going to service, or engaging in fellowship. It did include a dress code, which he admits to violating repeatedly over a long period of time. He CHOOSE to do this, CHOOSE to wear something that was not within the allowed items, and as a result of his CHOICE was terminated. A liberal slobbery court will find in his favor. A good one will throw any case out as he chose to violate a policy he agreed to as a condition of his employment. McDonalds, Burger King, Lowes, Picture People, IBM, and thousands of other companies have the same or a similar policy.

If this was over his wearing of a cross, I'd back him, the same way I'd back a Jew over a Star of David, or a Pagan over a pentacle. This was over wearing a political button with a religious message. Epic Fail. Sorry. It's a damn shame that people are harassing the manager over their enforcing their company policy. You should be ashamed at yourselves.

 

[Carol]

If an employer allows a personal items in the workplace, then they must allow religious items of the same nature. An example: my employer has no issue with me having photos of my older niece and nephew on display at my desk, nor do they have a problem with my Franklin Mint sculpture of the old Boston Garden, or the calendar of my choice. Many of my colleagues have similar items at their desk...my shift counterpart has a calendar from his favorite Greek restaurant, I have a Buddhist calendar that is religious in nature.

Though I do appreciate the sentiments and philosophy displayed on the calendar, I am not a Buddhist, so displaying this calendar does not fall under anything associated with the "deeply and sincerely held beliefs" provisions of the Civil Rights Act. However, in the current environment, my employer cannot force me to take down my calendar because they allow other personal items to be on display.

I could go to work tomorrow and see a memo stating that as of (say) a week from now, no more personal items can be displayed in our workspaces, but the company will provide a selection of calendars, coffee mugs, pencil holders, and wall art that we can select to use at our desk. If/when that is the case, then I must take down my Buddhist calendar (and photos of relatives, etc) much like my colleague must take down his Greek restaurant calendar.

What Home Depot is doing is following that model regarding their dress code, specifically pins on their aprons. Should an employee chose to express themselves in a certain way, Home Depot will provide them with a selection of pins, including some with patriotic messages.

They gave the young man 8 warnings before terminating him, including giving him warnings as to how serious that was. I don't think they were unreasonable with their procedures.

 

[Omar B]

From - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_god_button_home_depot

"This associate chose to wear a button that expressed his religious beliefs. The issue is not whether or not we agree with the message on the button," Craig Fishel said. "That's not our place to say, which is exactly why we have a blanket policy, which is long-standing and well-communicated to our associates, that only company-provided pins and badges can be worn on our aprons."

Earlier this month, he began bringing a Bible to read during his lunch break at the store in the rural town of Okeechobee, about 140 miles north of Miami. That's when he says The Home Depot management told him he would have to remove the button.

I'm all for freedom and all that, but the company rep stated that they should wear company-provided pins. It's not TGI Fridays where you can put "pieces of flair" on your uniform, there's a policy. Besides, he was bringing in his bible to read at lunch, I don't know the policy on this sort of thing but that is clearly bringing religion into the workplace.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Your choice of reading material, as long as not 'obscene' is usually not a problem. I've never seen anyone have issue with a bible at work, as long as it was kept personal, and the person didn't launch into a sermon on break.

The issue appears to be that his previous manager didn't enforce the written policy, and a new manager is. They would (should) take the same approach if he had a Metallica button, a 9/11 pin, or a vendor issued but not company approved badge as well.

When I worked at McD, staff were encouraged to earn and wear company approved pins. Picture People had a 'no pins but company issued ones' policy when I worked for them. I did a spot survey today at Walmart, a local grocery store, and a local convenience store. All stated similar policies, and similar penalty for non-conformance.

The ACLU's silence on this matter might be because they see it as it is, an employee refusing to follow company policy, not a freedom case.

I have encountered policies where I would be required to wear a long sleeve due to my tattoos. I've encountered policies where my choice of religious necklace was bared, as were -all- similar regardless of faith. I've got no issues with those as they were evenly and fairly enforced.

Regarding the subject though, I do take issue.

People are seeing this as a 'constitutional violation'. None has occurred as it's specific "Congress Shall Not", and they didn't. A private business did.

People are claiming his religious rights were violated. Nope. At no point was he told to convert, stop practicing, stop believing, deny, etc.

People paint him as a martyr, as a victim, as a helpless person. He himself stated "I want to be a voice for the rest of the Christians and for the citizens of this country to stand up for the country. You know, quit being told to sit down. Say what you want to say and don't be afraid of the consequences,". Sure, don't be afraid of them, but accept responsibility for your actions too.

He most likely signed an agreement on hiring that said he would as a condition of employment comply with his employers policies. Non compliance is usually grounds for termination.

Of course some say "I'll shop at Lowes." They have the same policy. I asked.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

There are a number of company policies that my company has that I object to. Nothing too major, but yeah, some of their polices really stick in my craw. I find them intrusive of my privacy and frankly evil in their intent. I have the option of either complying with policies I disagree with or leaving. I choose to comply. However, if it really, really, got up my sleeve, I could leave. There is nothing stopping me from doing so.

If he had an objection to the company policy, he was free to seek other employment. He chose not to do that. Clearly, he was after something. I suspect he got what he wanted. I hope that it meets his expectations.

As a Christian, I am painfully aware of the number of my fellow Christians who go around looking to be 'oppressed'. I find it depressing.

There is real religious discrimination that sometimes occurs, and when it does, those who are illegally oppressed should have recourse to the law and I'm all for them garnering public sympathy. It does not sound to me like this is one of those times.

 

[Carol]

I'm all for freedom and all that, but the company rep stated that they should wear company-provided pins. It's not TGI Fridays where you can put "pieces of flair" on your uniform, there's a policy. Besides, he was bringing in his bible to read at lunch, I don't know the policy on this sort of thing but that is clearly bringing religion into the workplace.

A policy can be enforced as strongly as the law, but a policy cannot break the law. I think the safest answer would be to follow the EEOC's model about religious items in a workspace and say that if the company allows the employees bring in their own books to read at lunch, then they must let the employees bring in a religious book to read at lunch.

Having said that, if (say) kindly Aunt Maggie chooses to quietly read her Bible after eating her lunch, I doubt that would bother most folks, except perhaps someone really looking to pick a fight.

The fact that his confrontation with management over his pin began when he started bringing his Bible to work tells me that his pin wasn't an issue to anyone until he started drawing attention to himself in ways that were becoming disruptive. And, frankly speaking, this is the kind of scenario that drives a manager crazy. A good performer that is hard to manage is generally a bigger problem for a team than an average performer that is easy to manage.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

This is a dress code violation being pushed as a religious issue. All this does is make it harder for the people dealing with real issues of religious oppression to be taken seriously and gain relief.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I'm seeing this in a somewhat different light. Let's assume that the news article is missing details -- as they invariably do.

Home Depot is an employer which pays people by the hour, and I would gather, that unless the employee has a unique skill set, it is a wage somewhere above the minimum in any given jurisdiction, but not a sum that would be regarded as princely. In other words, it's a job. The company calls their staff "associates," and, I'm sure, tells them their part of a family... yadda, yadda, yadda.

At the end of the day, it's a job. You punch in, do your work, and go home... to your real family, if you have one.

The guy's wearing a pin -- I know it's not a standard company-issue pin, but it's a pin for cryin' out loud, which says what his country's own Pledge says, "One nation under God, indivisible." Maybe it's a religious statement. Maybe it's a political statement. Maybe it's just his way of being patriotic. Who cares. It's a pin.

He brings his Bible to work. Provided he's not reading when he should be working, what's the big deal? If he wants to sit in the break room and read his Bible, where's the problem? If he's proselytizing his co-workers or customers, that's another matter. If he were proselytize me, I'd tell him where to get off the bus, but I wouldn't need to report him and have him fired. I'd just tell him to leave me alone.

If people are merely uncomfortable watching the man read or carry a bible, then the world is getting way too sensitive. And BTW, I am the most irreligious person I know.

This reminds me of a story out of Windsor, Ontario, years back, when Walmart set up shop. An employee led the charge to start a union because...

• employees were not allowed to read personal literature (books, newspapers, and the like) in the break room, only company fliers and the employee manual
• employees were required to start the day with a cheer, Give me a "W," give me an "A"

...and so on. The woman explained that she was told the Walmart "family" had certain expectations of its members -- resistance is futile? -- to which she wryly commented that she earned seven and change an hour whilst the company in Canada picked up some seventy million that year, and she was pretty sure her family was at home.

These corporations are getting just a little too big-Brotherish for my taste. I understand appearance codes and expectations of behaviour, but where does all this stop? I've been known to wear pins that say things like, "Let's Stop Racism," or pins or ribbons which promote an end to violence against women.

When I read this story, I realize how lucky I am to be established in a profession that is protected by a union. I was laid off in my late-thirties, and had to do all kinds of jobs to keep body and soul together. If I had to go to work for Walmart or Home Depot tomorrow and put up with any of this nonsense, I'd lose my mind.

Or start a union.

 

[Carol]

He brings his Bible to work. Provided he's not reading when he should be working, what's the big deal? If he wants to sit in the break room and read his Bible, where's the problem? If he's proselytizing his co-workers or customers, that's another matter. If he were proselytize me, I'd tell him where to get off the bus, but I wouldn't need to report him and have him fired. I'd just tell him to leave me alone.

Because here in the States, the US EEOC has made it illegal for an environment to be hostile (hostile in a legal sense, not in an emotional sense) to classes that are protected by law, such as religion, race, national origin, etc. Proselytizing his faith in the break room puts the Home Depot in a situation where they are, legally, more at risk.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Proselytizing his faith in the break room puts the Home Depot in a situation where they are, legally, more at risk.

But did he actually proselytize anybody? I didn't spot it in the article. If he did, then there are legal issues, of course. I was speaking personally, as someone who loathes to be proselytized.

 

[Carol]

But did he actually proselytize anybody? I didn't spot it in the article. If he did, then there are legal issues, of course. I was speaking personally, as someone who loathes to be proselytized.

I don't know for sure, I'm just going off the thoughts I stated in post #7.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The company, in my opinion screwed up. They allowed him to wear the button for months before doing anything about it. They only started on the company dress code stuff, after he started bringing the bible to work.

I was involved in a large franchise for a while, and there is zero tolerance for being out of code. You would get your *** kicked to the moon if you were.

Home depot should have put a stop to it all the day he showed up with a non-company approved addition to his dress code. Period, end of story. By allowing him to wear it for months, and only confront him after the bible comes out, looks bad. They were still within their rights to make him stop, but the optics are terrible.

As an atheist, it has never bothered me if someone brings a religious text to work and reads it during break or lunch, that is their right in my opinion. It has resulted in some great, and enjoyable discussions with people from multiple faiths. So long as everyone respects that everyone has a right to their opinion and does in no way attempt to shove that opinion down anyone’s throat, fine.

I understand having a workplace that is non-threatening, I’m not familiar to US laws, but is someone minding their own business, reading in a corner honestly threatening? I agree with Bill, some Christians, and other denominations look to be oppressed, but some others…. look way too hard to be offended.

 

[Carol]

I understand having a workplace that is non-threatening, I’m not familiar to US laws, but is someone minding their own business, reading in a corner honestly threatening?

That would not be hostile. What could be hostile is if he started disparaging others because they don't know Jesus, or if he suddenly sitting next to people he thought were Jewish or Muslim colleagues and nagging them to take a bite of his ham and cheese sub.

I don't know what went on in the store, and the details in the news are sparse. But just going on experience with similar types of management issues, this doesn't sound like someone tried to pick a fight with the guy over his choice of reading material, nor does it sound like corporate muscle decided to slam the hammer down. It sounds more to me like the guy started turning up the volume (so to speak) with his faith, to the point where he started causing trouble. I'm not saying that is factual, I'm just saying it is likely.

 

[jks9199]

It's neither a political nor a religious issue. The kid can believe whatever he wants. He can read whatever he wants (unless policies prohibit personal reading). He can't wear whatever he wants, and just because he got away with it for months, that doesn't make him right. I suspect the timing was simply a coincidence; probably it was noticed during an inspection or secret shopper or the like, and the local management was told to address it.

The kid ignored several warnings, and chose not to comply. He's a dumbass. Nothing more. And his comment about "God's plan" reminds me of a joke...

A man lived in a town that was about to be flooded. A few days before, everyone was told to evacuate. He remained behind, saying "God will take care of me." The day of the flood, they send buses to evacuate those who have stayed behind; he remains, saying "God will take care of me." As the waters rise, he's forced to the second floor of his house, and a man comes by in a boat, offering to take him to safety. "God will save me." Finally, the waters rise so high that he's forced to his roof, and a helicopter lowers a rope to him. He refuses the rope, saying "God will save me." The waters rise higher, his house is washed away, and he drowns. As he's standing at the Pearly Gates, he asks God why he didn't save him. God replied "I gave you warning days ahead, then I sent buses. When that wasn't enough, I sent a boat -- and even a helicopter! What more was I to do?"

 

[Omar B]

The company, in my opinion screwed up. They allowed him to wear the button for months before doing anything about it. They only started on the company dress code stuff, after he started bringing the bible to work.

I was involved in a large franchise for a while, and there is zero tolerance for being out of code. You would get your *** kicked to the moon if you were.

Home depot should have put a stop to it all the day he showed up with a non-company approved addition to his dress code. Period, end of story. By allowing him to wear it for months, and only confront him after the bible comes out, looks bad. They were still within their rights to make him stop, but the optics are terrible.

As an atheist, it has never bothered me if someone brings a religious text to work and reads it during break or lunch, that is their right in my opinion. It has resulted in some great, and enjoyable discussions with people from multiple faiths. So long as everyone respects that everyone has a right to their opinion and does in no way attempt to shove that opinion down anyone’s throat, fine.

I understand having a workplace that is non-threatening, I’m not familiar to US laws, but is someone minding their own business, reading in a corner honestly threatening? I agree with Bill, some Christians, and other denominations look to be oppressed, but some others…. look way too hard to be offended.

I'm an atheist too and in my college job there was a girl there who was going to some sort of bible college and she studied her bible and made notes during lunch hours. We had some interesting chats, she found it almost incredulous that I did not believe as she did. Nobody was being persecuted though. I think as Bill said, people go looking for trouble, be it religious, or race baiters or whatever other bug they may have up their you know whats.

As stated many times, the stories from both links seem incomplete. Maybe somebody got all up in arms and offended then something had to be done.

 

[Cryozombie]

My take on the whole mess:

Kid/Guy was wearing his pin. The old boss who was probably as underpaid as the rest of the employees in the store (and I can get into discussion about retail, retail management and skillsets vs pay all day, been there done that gave up and left) and didn't give a damn. New boss comes along and wants to be a hard-*** tow the company line this is my career and is gonna be my life till I die kinda guy... and enforces the rule.

Guy gets mad that the new boss is being a hardass, and decides to make an issue of it. I've seen it happen more than once.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Guy is an idiot. So are his supporters. He had a choice, many in fact. He just made the one that idiots follow.

 

[Archangel M]

Idiots?

I guess that depends on what this guy and his supporters are doing.

If they are pushing a lawsuit for a cash reward then perhaps.

If they are just voicing their opinion then they are no more idiotic than someone protesting when an employer is the one displaying a religious symbol IMO.

While I agree that this is an issue of company policy, there also appears to e an issue of "past practice" going on here. I respect the "standing on principle" issue here, but the Christians in the Roman times didn't file suit against the gvt over being thrown to the lions.

If you are going to take a stand you should be ready for the consequences.