Labor Union Myths By Bob Hubbard
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
- Start date
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
Based on what you've said in a previous post, management just gets new workers.
But it what we're talking about is choice, then people who don't want union jobs should choose to work for a non-union shop. Like you say, there's always another job.
I certainly won't dispute what you have said here. Wouldn't dream of it. Some people are thugs, bullies and dinosaurs. I find what you describe, in terms of threats and physical contact, invidious.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
When i was old enough to understand what the union was doing to her, i told her to quit, she said simply, "I was a single woman with a child to raise, i didnt have the luxury of being picky"
couldnt argue with that
I HATE unions, I hate the lazy worthless people that use them to hold onto a job that they couldnt keep otherwise, I hate the cost increases that come from greedy unions.I hate the greedy unions destroyed the american steel industry and they are well on thier way to doing the same with the american auto industry.
couldnt argue with that
I HATE unions, I hate the lazy worthless people that use them to hold onto a job that they couldnt keep otherwise, I hate the cost increases that come from greedy unions.I hate the greedy unions destroyed the american steel industry and they are well on thier way to doing the same with the american auto industry.
There are other points of view out there. From my point of view, the unions aren't THAT bad...and that is after belonging to one. Also, I think you should seriously consider doing some research into the downfall of American Manufacturing. It's not as so easy to blame Unions once you understand how globalization of industry was actually accomplished. From my point of view, Unions are fighting a battle to maintain a standard of living that working could expect a generation ago. This is a battle they are losing.
Also, I think you need to really take a look at working conditions in places where in which American labor is being shipped. Do you really want to deliver those standards here?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
what a bunch of crap.
the whole "if you dont like unions, you want kids working in foundrys" is a MYTH
the government keeps stuff like that happening now, not the unions.
The unions are not protecting anyone or anything other than themselves.
108 years ago they served a purpose, now? nothing good comes from them.
the whole "if you dont like unions, you want kids working in foundrys" is a MYTH
the government keeps stuff like that happening now, not the unions.
The unions are not protecting anyone or anything other than themselves.
108 years ago they served a purpose, now? nothing good comes from them.
No, no one needs a union. The benefits they supposedly provide, with the exception of collective bargaining, are available to anyone. You just have to know what your rights and responsibilities are. Workplace unsafe? OSHA! Illegal practices? Labor Board! Americans have no problem suing each other for the most idiotic things, sue your boss if he is screwing you.
So, you choose to ignore the added costs caused by unions?
That is a crock of something brown and smelly. A generation ago there was no cable TV, much less Broadband internet, etc.
Another crock. As stated, if you take responsibility for yourself, you will know what your rights are and you will not be screwed by "the man." If you are you will know the proper actions to take to rectify the situation. Also, it is worth noting that many of the same people who tell us there are no universal morals and that we have no right to judge other cultures based on our own mores, are the same people who whine about "bringing those standards over here". Japanese factories are in many cases much more efficiently run than union shops here in the US, we certainly wouldn't want those standards brought over here.
This is actually an insightful point. I'm not sure what influence the Unions actually have, although I can personally see a connection.
For years, the Japanese have been leading the world in business process efficiency and the American factories and manufacturing world is falling sadly behind. The ideas set forth in "Lean Thinking" and "Business Process Reengineering" are only now starting to take hold in the US, but they were originally cultivated over 20 years ago in Japan. I feel that the US MUST reengineer and lean down to survive.
But reengineering and leaning processes means creating efficiencies....which means often cutting jobs. Which we cannot do due to Unions. It is a terrible thing when anyone loses a job, but again, corporations cannot keep up because they don't have the option. But that leads to a moral question....where is the line? Corporations must be as efficient as possible and do their work at the lowest possible cost, but where is the trade-off between efficiency and jobs?
Isn't that really what we're all talking about here? Where that line is drawn? Between profit for the company and profit for the individual?
None of your working conditions are entitlements. All of it can be taken away. OSHA standards can be completely subverted. Little kids can, AND ARE, put to work in the fields without any kind of protection from pestacides, the sun, much less child labor laws, IN THIS COUNTRY. If you don't beleive me, take a look at some of the books I suggested up thread. Hell, the vaunted "weekend" is becoming a thing of the past.
The bottom line is this, you are going to be proven wrong in the worse imaginable way. Your kids are going to suffer because of what you beleive. Don't think for one second that the destruction of the unions will protect any of the working conditions in which you feel entitled.
Without unions, without people standing up to capital and demanding fair compensation, IMO, you are not going to see any working person with a wage anywhere close to what people are making now. Everyone will be impoverished.
I'm not willing to sit back and let history prove me right on this one. And, despite your ill feelings, I am still willing stand up and fight for you. In essence, you are being protected by the herd in exactly the same way the uninnoculated are by those who are vaccinated.
You let the herd revert and suddenly YOU get sick.
The key to understanding what is going on, to understanding all of my posts in this thread, and to understanding the importance in unions lies in understanding what has happened to the value of the USD over the past 100 years.
This isn't something you are going to "get" by reading this thread. It is something you are going to have to think about and really consider against some very deeply held beleifs.
I am not the biggest supporter of unions. In fact, I think they are counter productive in many areas of our society, but they do some things right. They are a reaction to the overwhelming concentration of capital.
Here is a couple of things you can check out if you really want to think about this issue. If not, then have a good day.
Here is a Right wing view.
Here is a Left wign view.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
you are wrong
are you by any chance a paid union official?
are you by any chance a paid union official?
:feedtroll
Is it just me or are bits being left out of this debate? the bits like 'in my opinion' unions aren't needed or 'in my opinion' you're wrong? it's all statement and that if you opposed to those statements and dare to think something else you're an idiot to say the least. I thought the whole point of being American was that you stood for free speech and tolerance, well there's damn little of that here. Honestly you should step back and take a look at this thread!
Bob and Maunakumu hold different views yet manage to hold a very interesting discussion without calling each other names, I've found myself agreeing with points made by both of them, learning about American unions and views for and against yet still keep my own point of view.
I don't know why political discussions on here end up getting so personal. Nobody has to agree yet some when disagreed with take it as an affront to their manhood!
Bob and Maunakumu hold different views yet manage to hold a very interesting discussion without calling each other names, I've found myself agreeing with points made by both of them, learning about American unions and views for and against yet still keep my own point of view.
I don't know why political discussions on here end up getting so personal. Nobody has to agree yet some when disagreed with take it as an affront to their manhood!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #114
Gordon, I had some of the same thoughts on that one myself. For one, the dialog listed doesn't seem 'real' to me.
I don't think Unions should be eliminated. I think they are over rated, and abused and abusive at times. But, you as a worker with a legitimate concern should be able to go to an employer as an individual or as a group and air that concern, and the employer should hear you. But I have a problem with "seniority rules" and salary caps, and forced donations to political causes I don't support, and being required to not work because someone else has a problem. As an employer, I have a problem with the idea that I can be physically assaulted by a striker, and required to rehire him after wards. That's just insane!
Top 10 Best Places to Work
1 Google - Non Union
2 Quicken Loans - ?
3 Wegmans Food Markets - Non Union
4 Edward Jones - ?
5 Genentech - ?
6 Cisco Systems - ?
7 Starbucks - Non Union
8 Qualcomm - ?
9 Goldman Sachs - ?
10 Methodist Hospital System - ?
I don't think Unions should be eliminated. I think they are over rated, and abused and abusive at times. But, you as a worker with a legitimate concern should be able to go to an employer as an individual or as a group and air that concern, and the employer should hear you. But I have a problem with "seniority rules" and salary caps, and forced donations to political causes I don't support, and being required to not work because someone else has a problem. As an employer, I have a problem with the idea that I can be physically assaulted by a striker, and required to rehire him after wards. That's just insane!
Top 10 Best Places to Work
1 Google - Non Union
2 Quicken Loans - ?
3 Wegmans Food Markets - Non Union
4 Edward Jones - ?
5 Genentech - ?
6 Cisco Systems - ?
7 Starbucks - Non Union
8 Qualcomm - ?
9 Goldman Sachs - ?
10 Methodist Hospital System - ?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #115
Hmm....considering I do 3 day weekends, have incredible flexibility of schedule, and am not being effected by the "recession", maybe the solution isn't a union job, or a non union job. It's self employment, living within your means and forgoing a credit based lifestyle...
We don't have union and non union places of work. Anyone is allowed to join a union or not, up to them. Employment law says you can't employ or not employ people because they are or aren't in a union. Starbucks here had a big demonstration against them last year, they have the lowest paid employees here, paying minimum rate. Their shops were picketed by union members and there's very few people in the UK that will cross a picket line. All workers in UK and Europe have the right to join a union thats UK and European law, if Starbucks break the law they will end up in the European courts whether they care or not. They have the reputation of being bad to work for and tend to employ immigrant labour here.
We don't have seniority rules, salary caps or forced donations. Any and all donations are voted on by the union members are are often turned down. it may make unions here cumbersome in that everything has to go to the members first but while slow it works as democracy should.
Anyone assualting anyone in the work place will be disciplined, no one will get away with that because they are in a union. The bosses however may get away with it if theres not a union. One of my 'jobs' is investigating assaults ( if any) in the workplace, and the few there have been that have been proved in the MOD have been cases for dismissal which also means loss of pension.
We don't have seniority rules, salary caps or forced donations. Any and all donations are voted on by the union members are are often turned down. it may make unions here cumbersome in that everything has to go to the members first but while slow it works as democracy should.
Anyone assualting anyone in the work place will be disciplined, no one will get away with that because they are in a union. The bosses however may get away with it if theres not a union. One of my 'jobs' is investigating assaults ( if any) in the workplace, and the few there have been that have been proved in the MOD have been cases for dismissal which also means loss of pension.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #117
Interesting. I've heard mostly good things about SB in the States.
Here, in more than half the states shops are 100% union or non union. Only 22 states allow a mix (Right to Work states).
Here, in more than half the states shops are 100% union or non union. Only 22 states allow a mix (Right to Work states).
It has abad rep here with enviromentalist because of the water they waste, they leave cold taps running all day. it causes outrage here because we have water shortages quite often.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7654691.stm
this is quite funny though!
http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/starbucks/index.html
They are known for being bad employers though plus we tend to like our little caffs, Starbucks is seen as an american interloper taking over the place like McDs etc. All the places the same.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7654691.stm
this is quite funny though!
http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/starbucks/index.html
They are known for being bad employers though plus we tend to like our little caffs, Starbucks is seen as an american interloper taking over the place like McDs etc. All the places the same.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
This strain of thought on unions and unionism has a long history in America. It didn't rise out of a vacuum. We have a unique history with labor that has led to much of the current day widespread anti-union sentiment, governmentally backed union busting measures, and long term declining union membership. The anti-union foes really don't have much to worry about. At current rates of decline, there will only be a handful of unions left in the future. The Teamsters I'm sure, I don't think they will ever die.
When I was eight years old, I grabbled a fifty pound snapping turtle by the tail in an attempt to catch the darn thing. Well, the thing caught me and I soon found out that if I let the thing go, it would immediately turn around and bite me. So, I held the damned thing as long as I could and screamed my head off for some help. When my friends came along and saw the trouble I was in, they grabbed some sticks and drove the turtle off. Finally, I let go.
IMO, this is where I feel our society is at. The turtle in this case is a Fabian Socialist symbol. It represents an incremental approach to creating a Utopia. Except that it should be known that Fabian Socialism isn't a gutter movement and its not creating a gutter Utopia. The movement began with the upper class elite in England and then was transported over here as the big time New York Finaciers took interest. They particularly liked Galton's philosophy of Eugenics. It made their hard fought positions a divine right of their superior nature. The rest of us were scum and needed to be taught our place. Taught how to be managed.
Bob, in no way does our society even nominally resemble what was laid out by the Founding Fathers. The Free Market is a joke that most Americans probably wouldn't even recognize. Bob, Fabian socialism has morphed into a calculating form of corporate socialism. The vast piles of capital use government power and the strength of their cartel to keep their piles of money from dissipating by Market Forces. It's the second law of thermodynamics. You have to expend energy in order to maintain order. Otherwise the universe falls into disorder. Thus, the elite need to expend energy to maintain their positions. This power is flexed through the might of government.
And it would not be possible in the Jeffersonian Republic that we should have been. We don't live in that world, however. We live in this one and we need to deal with problems now.
Bob, the Unions are like grabbing the turtle by the tail. It was a stupid idea to begin with, but now the turtle is poised to turn around and bite you as soon as you let go. In my opinion, I think all we can do is hope that if we hold it long enough the rest of our friends will come to help. Even people like Twin Fist are sooner or later going to realize what kind of danger this turtle represents.
Bob, in a fight, when all you have is a stick, would you throw the stick down and hope for a knife?
The point about Union corruption and collusion is salient. However, I know that the majority of people in Unions are good people and if called to action, they would do the right things. Heck, even my old Union president, he was the worst teacher in the world and he used his position to protect his sorry lazy *** in order to get a paycheck, EVEN HE could be reasoned with when push came to shove. The key lies in getting the information out. The key lies in the general membership rising up when the time is right and shutting down society if it needs to come to that. The few corrupt unions bosses won't be able to stand in the way of that.
We are too well armed and information is too freely available for hope to be completely lost. In my opinion, Unions represent a method that we can use to quickly organize if need be. My guess is that we'll continue to disagree on this issue, but now the difference is a matter of faith.
IMO, this is where I feel our society is at. The turtle in this case is a Fabian Socialist symbol. It represents an incremental approach to creating a Utopia. Except that it should be known that Fabian Socialism isn't a gutter movement and its not creating a gutter Utopia. The movement began with the upper class elite in England and then was transported over here as the big time New York Finaciers took interest. They particularly liked Galton's philosophy of Eugenics. It made their hard fought positions a divine right of their superior nature. The rest of us were scum and needed to be taught our place. Taught how to be managed.
Bob, in no way does our society even nominally resemble what was laid out by the Founding Fathers. The Free Market is a joke that most Americans probably wouldn't even recognize. Bob, Fabian socialism has morphed into a calculating form of corporate socialism. The vast piles of capital use government power and the strength of their cartel to keep their piles of money from dissipating by Market Forces. It's the second law of thermodynamics. You have to expend energy in order to maintain order. Otherwise the universe falls into disorder. Thus, the elite need to expend energy to maintain their positions. This power is flexed through the might of government.
And it would not be possible in the Jeffersonian Republic that we should have been. We don't live in that world, however. We live in this one and we need to deal with problems now.
Bob, the Unions are like grabbing the turtle by the tail. It was a stupid idea to begin with, but now the turtle is poised to turn around and bite you as soon as you let go. In my opinion, I think all we can do is hope that if we hold it long enough the rest of our friends will come to help. Even people like Twin Fist are sooner or later going to realize what kind of danger this turtle represents.
Bob, in a fight, when all you have is a stick, would you throw the stick down and hope for a knife?
The point about Union corruption and collusion is salient. However, I know that the majority of people in Unions are good people and if called to action, they would do the right things. Heck, even my old Union president, he was the worst teacher in the world and he used his position to protect his sorry lazy *** in order to get a paycheck, EVEN HE could be reasoned with when push came to shove. The key lies in getting the information out. The key lies in the general membership rising up when the time is right and shutting down society if it needs to come to that. The few corrupt unions bosses won't be able to stand in the way of that.
We are too well armed and information is too freely available for hope to be completely lost. In my opinion, Unions represent a method that we can use to quickly organize if need be. My guess is that we'll continue to disagree on this issue, but now the difference is a matter of faith.
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