Hitting Hard to Learn a Lesson

[heretic888]

I kind had a feeling this might go against the grain of some of MT’s members.
My original post was meant to be a metaphor about another subject but I think most didn’t get it. Maybe I didn’t give a good example.

I have had many potential students come to my dojo from the world of “tippy-tap” tournaments….. 99.99% of the time they have their hands in the wrong place for the way people might normally fight…..too low to either block or counter effectively.

They are so used to never having someone “get serious” about hitting their head that their body has adapted it self to having the hands out of position and feeling “safe” that way.

It’s a real eye opener for them when they spar the first time and feel helpless as they get smacked in the head. They are not used to the discomfort of getting hit and go into a kind of shock for a second. Often they are not used to hitting and making hard contact as well. Hitting and getting hit is extremely strenuous and I have seen many people in good shape tire quickly because they don’t stay calm. They usually find what they were previously taught by their old teachers is ineffective.

A bit of stress or pressure is needed to add realism to training….this will help eliminate some or most of the shock of getting hit and the student will learn to remain calm and not lose their wits more so than if they were not used to being hit at all.

Admittedly some dojo do this sort of training for sadistic reasons or just plain old fashion machismo, however, this is not why we train this way. We train this way so the student is better prepared for what may happen in the real world. It’s not exactly fun to get hit but you find out exactly where your weakness is and will correct it more quickly than if someone that beleives in the "warm & fuzzy" approach says:
“gosh, ya know I don’t mean to harp on you or destroy your right to self expression and creativeness but it might be better if you held your hands in this way because in a real fight you might get hit….blah, blah, blah” .

All the “hand holding” and “warm fuzzy” feelings won’t teach you how to stay calm after getting hit…...I don’t enjoy hitting my students while sparring (or getting hit by them) but I DO want them to be able to protect themselves.

It should be mentioned, of course, that "pressure training" and "sparring" are not necessarily the same thing here.

 

[RRouuselot]

It should be mentioned, of course, that "pressure training" and "sparring" are not necessarily the same thing here.

Just so there is no misunderstanding.
When I said pressure I meant as in giving them a bit of stress not as in pressure points

 

[heretic888]

Just so there is no misunderstanding.
When I said pressure I meant as in giving them a bit of stress not as in pressure points

Ummm.... okay??

What made you think I was talking about kyusho just then?? :idunno:

 

[RRouuselot]

Ummm.... okay??

What made you think I was talking about kyusho just then?? :idunno:

I didn't. Someone sent me an email and asked if that is what I meant.

 

[heretic888]

I didn't. Someone sent me an email and asked if that is what I meant.

Ah, ok. I must have misread.

 

[MJS]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I mostly train as part of my daily routine. I am not really concerned with SD anymore….I think I can deal with most things that might come my way. I think joining a dojo to meet people or weight loss might not be such a good reason to join. For socializing there has got to be a better place, and for weight loss……best place would be to join a gym and consult with a fitness trainer. Most MA don’t have a clue on how to lose weight.

I agree. You'd be surprised though as the number of people that join for those reasons.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]YES! Ask as many questions as you want about everything. If the teacher gives you “questionable” answers or seems to dodge the question (about him, his training, or background) thank him for his time and leave. John Lindsey of E-Budo wrote a good article on finding a dojo.

agreed!

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Could you imagine 2 boxers never making contact, or 2 judoka never grabbing each other…..it would be a joke. MA are not ballet or aerobics with punches….that would be Tae-Bo. In MA you NEED contact.

Absolutely!!

4)[font=&quot] [/font]I have seen this too. Going that east does nobody any good.

Thats right. Contact has to be made. How else is the person going to get any better if no or hardly any contact is made?

5)[font=&quot] [/font]Nor am I. You do need some amount of “discomfort”. This serves 2 purposes. 1 is to know the tori/defender is doing the technique correctly, the other is so uke/attaker can know how it feels to have the technique done….and thereby gaining respect for it’s use.

Agreed!

Mike

 

[Don Roley]

It should be mentioned, of course, that "pressure training" and "sparring" are not necessarily the same thing here.

Anyone ever been in the military?

Which is more stressfull, sparring or your first ten minutes off the bus at basic training?

There are plenty of ways to put pressure on people- not just physical ones. Food for thought and exploration.

 

[arnisador]

I certainly learned things by sparring with rattan sticks vs. padded ones. It was valuable.

 

[RRouuselot]

I certainly learned things by sparring with rattan sticks vs. padded ones. It was valuable.

Kind of bumped it up a notch didn’t it?.......did it put a more realistic perspective on what you do when training?

I may be wrong but doesn’t Arnis use knives/machetes for real encounters instead of sticks?

Can you imagine the way it would change the way you do technique and your willingness to engage the opponent if all of a sudden you had to use live blades instead of sticks?

I doubt people would just go at it or have the same reaction as if it were padded sticks or just plain sticks as compared to live blades……..it would be a different mind set all together.

 

[arnisador]

Some--many--FMAs use the sticks as stand-ins for swords, but others have switched to all-stick (e.g., Balintawak). Modern Arnis talks about swords but really emphasizes stick techniques. We often grab the stick, for example.

One of the most interesting things learned was what doesn't work. Some FMA instructors teach that a single hit will decide a fight--but a rattan stick to the forearm or thigh just gets ignored. (Less so on the hand.) Of course for fighting one would want a heavier stick, but it's interesting to see how little it matters to get hit with the rattan in "naturally padded" areas.

Kicks it up a notch? Oh yeah. For knife training I like to use metal training blades--it's not like live blades, which I consider unsafe to spar with, but somehow the feel of the metal gives you some of that mental feeling that you've just been cut.

 

[RRouuselot]

Some--many--FMAs use the sticks as stand-ins for swords, but others have switched to all-stick (e.g., Balintawak). Modern Arnis talks about swords but really emphasizes stick techniques. We often grab the stick, for example.

One of the most interesting things learned was what doesn't work. Some FMA instructors teach that a single hit will decide a fight--but a rattan stick to the forearm or thigh just gets ignored. (Less so on the hand.) Of course for fighting one would want a heavier stick, but it's interesting to see how little it matters to get hit with the rattan in "naturally padded" areas.

Kicks it up a notch? Oh yeah. For knife training I like to use metal training blades--it's not like live blades, which I consider unsafe to spar with, but somehow the feel of the metal gives you some of that mental feeling that you've just been cut.

So now that you look back on training with padded weapons and training with hard wood or metal weapons which would you say better prepares you for something that might be needed in the real world?

Also, has your opinion changed after training in both ways?

Has your mind set changed while actually training?

 

[arnisador]

So now that you look back on training with padded weapons and training with hard wood or metal weapons which would you say better prepares you for something that might be needed in the real world?

Also, has your opinion changed after training in both ways?

Has your mind set changed while actually training?

I think padded weapons may be a necessary stage, and there is a time and a place for everything. For me, I prefer wood. It doesn't flop around I strike, it doesn't bend when I try to do a lock with it, etc. And, I know when I've been hit so I don't "learn" to walk through damaging attacks--a big danger. I've heard people say "I could keep fighting after that" after getting hit in the face with a soft stick. Well...maybe, but not near as well, and if he knows what he's doing he's about to follow up with one heck of a blow.

It certainly changed my perception of the usefulness of certain techniques--some for better, some for worse. It also makes the adrenalin kick in.

I trained without "live" training for years when I started out (in Karate), because that's how I was taught. Enjoyable, but empty at its heart. Now I put on the boxing gloves for empty hand sparring all the time, and kick hard at targets that won't break. I grapple to win. I swing the stick and take some hits back. It's the only way. I'm a convert.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Now I put on the boxing gloves for empty hand sparring all the time, and kick hard at targets that won't break. I grapple to win. I swing the stick and take some hits back. It's the only way. I'm a convert.

Then why are you posting this in this forum?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If your way is the only way, what do you hope to achieve by posting in this forum?

 

[arnisador]

If your way is the only way, what do you hope to achieve by posting in this forum?

I said "I'm a convert", meaning me--it's the only way for me. I respect those who train differently--I certainly didn't mean to imply that I didn't.

Why in this forum? That's where the thread was. Thread drift happens.

 

[Cryozombie]

Yes.

Lets play nice, and bring this thread back on topic, shall we.

 

[Makalakumu]

I've broken a few bones from training over the years. Fingers, ribs, clavicle, wrists, a knee...and almost my neck. I over did this type of training and now I'm beginning to pay for it. I'm 28 and I can feel latent pain setting in on my knee and my back. What can I expect when I'm 55? A good friend of mine is 35. He trained with Ken Shamrock in the Lion's Den. Same story, a body that broken and worn out (way worse then mine by the way). He had back surgury and the doc told him his back is 30 years older then it should be.

"Realism" walks a fine line. You can learn from it and you can end your training with it. What use is it when you've injured yourself to the point where you can't train anymore? In my dojang, I provide an environment where one can train "realistically" and still live a normal life. We spar regularly with some contact and attack each other with realism, but there are limits. Every couple of months we spar full speed, full contact...just enough so we don't forget. We wear full gear and I take every single safety precaution I can think of.

Yeah, some people still train harder then we do, but I would say we still get a good feeling for realism. Moreover, I have a wife and two kids and a job where I can't be sporting bruises and black eyes every day. The last two times I've been injured (when I broke my clavicle and popped a few ribs) really made living hard for me and my family.

This is my happy medium. I take it to my limit and my students are also pushed to that line. If they want more, they can go elsewhere and break some bones. I get nervous when people start talking about "realistic training" and I think there is a lot of hype out there with a lot of people blowing alot of smoke. The truth is that there is a cost to benifit ratio that people need to take into account in regards to realistic training.

I hope this makes sense...

upnorthkyosa

PS - Any amount of control reduces the realism in training. Therefore realism and continual training in a dojang are incompatible in their purest sense. There has to be balance.

 

[RRouuselot]

I've broken a few bones from training over the years. Fingers, ribs, clavicle, wrists, a knee...and almost my neck. I over did this type of training and now I'm beginning to pay for it. I'm 28 and I can feel latent pain setting in on my knee and my back. What can I expect when I'm 55? A good friend of mine is 35. He trained with Ken Shamrock in the Lion's Den. Same story, a body that broken and worn out (way worse then mine by the way). He had back surgury and the doc told him his back is 30 years older then it should be.

1) "Realism" walks a fine line. You can learn from it and you can end your training with it. What use is it when you've injured yourself to the point where you can't train anymore? In my dojang, I provide an environment where one can train "realistically" and still live a normal life. We spar regularly with some contact and attack each other with realism, but there are limits. Every couple of months we spar full speed, full contact...just enough so we don't forget. We wear full gear and I take every single safety precaution I can think of.

Yeah, some people still train harder then we do, but I would say we still get a good feeling for realism. Moreover, I have a wife and two kids and a job where

2) I can't be sporting bruises and black eyes every day. The last two times I've been injured (when I broke my clavicle and popped a few ribs) really made living hard for me and my family.

This is my happy medium. I take it to my limit and my students are also pushed to that line. If they want more, they can go elsewhere and break some bones. I get nervous when people start talking about "realistic training" and I think there is a lot of hype out there with a lot of people blowing alot of smoke. The truth is that there is a cost to benifit ratio that people need to take into account in regards to realistic training.

I hope this makes sense...

upnorthkyosa

PS - Any amount of control reduces the realism in training. Therefore realism and continual training in a dojang are incompatible in their purest sense. There has to be balance.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I hope when people train realistically they use some common sense and self control. Any idiot can go out there and go crazy and either get hurt or hurt someone. That is not really training…..if that is all people want then they could just as easily go to an NAACP meeting an confess how much they dislike African Americans or go to a Klan meeting and confess how much they love all non Anglo Saxons.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Hey, the “Panda” look is in! Just kidding. I feel ya on this one. I can’t go to work looking like I got hit by the Bullet Train…..people just don’t like to see that and I certainly don’t enjoy feeling like it.



In the MA one of the main things emphasized is courtesy. This is important at all levels of training as well as all aspects of training. If I give someone a good pop while sparring and they get a little pain, maybe drop to one knee or something there is no real need for me to jump on them and keep pounding. It should be evident from what happened that they need to work on whatever weakness caused that to happen. Usually when something like that happens we stop and I will let them know why it happened and how to not let it happen again. We will work on it easy at first and then pump up the volume as they get more comfortable with it. That is how people learn from their mistakes in sparring and not just from getting a good daily beat down.

 

[Makalakumu]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I hope when people train realistically they use some common sense and self control. Any idiot can go out there and go crazy and either get hurt or hurt someone. That is not really training…..if that is all people want then they could just as easily go to an NAACP meeting an confess how much they dislike African Americans or go to a Klan meeting and confess how much they love all non Anglo Saxons.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Hey, the “Panda” look is in! Just kidding. I feel ya on this one. I can’t go to work looking like I got hit by the Bullet Train…..people just don’t like to see that and I certainly don’t enjoy feeling like it.

In the MA one of the main things emphasized is courtesy. This is important at all levels of training as well as all aspects of training. If I give someone a good pop while sparring and they get a little pain, maybe drop to one knee or something there is no real need for me to jump on them and keep pounding. It should be evident from what happened that they need to work on whatever weakness caused that to happen. Usually when something like that happens we stop and I will let them know why it happened and how to not let it happen again. We will work on it easy at first and then pump up the volume as they get more comfortable with it. That is how people learn from their mistakes in sparring and not just from getting a good daily beat down.

In my opinion, martial arts is contact based like many contact sports. I won't call it a sport though

I think that one should expect a similar level of contact that one gets when playing an american football game or rugby game on sparring days...well a friendly game between friends, not the professional stuff. I think that in the dojang, one needs to be more careful in the terms of control and safety and, just as Robert said, more courteous.

This is a good discussion...

 

[RRouuselot]

One major thing I stress in the dojo is full contact is not a lesson in who can take a good beating or who can give one. That’s just macho BS and is a pretty pointless way to train. Full contact is a lesson in learning where your own weaknesses are and how to fix them. If people are not doing that they are just getting beat on for no reason. As I said before, full contact gives you the opportunity to react under a stressful situation that is “similar” to an actual situation. That alone helps you keep your act together when something really happens.