Hitting Hard to Learn a Lesson

[RRouuselot]

Lately there has been some debate over, shall we say, “straightforward” comments made towards others about their seriousness or lack of in training. From my perspective any comments made to enlighten the student about an aspect of their training is beneficial…..and sometimes not pleasant.

If I take this into the context of actually training it might be easier for me to explain.



When training/ full contact sparring with kobudo weapons we do not use the rubbery kind with all the foam on them, but real wood weapons. This serves several purposes. 1) is so the student will gain respect for the weapon, 2) it’s proper use, 3) teaches the end result of using it on an enemy or accidentally on ones self.

When using a Bo, Jo, Tonfa or other weapon when an opponent strikes and their attack goes un-blocked the results are very quickly noted that a mistake was made and the motivation for correcting it is increased. The lesson is learned quickly and clearly with no doubt as to whether a mistake was made or not and the result is often not very unpleasant but extremely practical. Granted this may not be the "PC" way and probably goes against the grain of people that think MAs should have their hands held every step along the path.......However, teaching in the above fashion smacks of Zen and little or no conversation needed.



Conversely, when using “rubba-chucks” and similar toys in sparring if mistakes are made there is no motivation to correct the errors of your ways and repeated mistakes are common, often go unchecked or possibly aren’t even considered to be mistakes at all. No lesson is learned and bad habits are quickly formed, repeated and then passed on.Teaching students in this fashion can only do them a disservice in the future.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Cracked skulls and broken collarbones don't teach many lessons either.

 

[RRouuselot]

Cracked skulls and broken collarbones don't teach many lessons either.

hasn't happend yet.....we usually call that using "control”

I take it by your sarcastic remark you disagree….

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Control in my book means hitting hard and on the mark.

 

[RRouuselot]

Control in my book means hitting hard and on the mark.

I see. So when you say: Cracked skulls and broken collarbones don't teach many lessons either.
You are saying that is where we are hitting? I am just wondering how you can even presume to know such things.....have you been in my dojo before?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Someone is going to get hit there sooner or later if you spar full speed with weapons. And on his/her hands, knees, ribs, groin etc.

 

[RRouuselot]

Someone is going to get hit there sooner or later if you spar full speed with weapons. And on his/her hands, knees, ribs, groin etc.

So does this mean you disagree?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Someone just dinged me a bad rep point for a previous post. If I understand this correctly you regularly spar full speed, full contact with wooden weapons. That IMNSHO is a very good way to discover that broken bones hurt and the human body is fragile. I don't need to find that out first hand.

An even better alternative would be to go to the Bronx and scream something like "you're all inbred". Then you'd have some serious fighting to do. Only problem is, once you go to extremes like that, will the benefits really outweigh the eventual loss of practicing students?

Self defense to me also means something that allows you to take care of your body up to old age.

 

[Michael Billings]

This thread seems to have run it's course. The sparring issue now being addressed is off topic, but far more interesting, if it applies to what I think it does.

I assume RRouuselot's post regarding training had to do with how people learn, and as it applies to this thread, i.e. that when confronted with reality, some chose to learn from it, while other's prefer a more indirect method. One is often more painful than the other. I thought it was a very interesting analogy if intended, especially when you deal with "control", "honesty", "truth", etc., where does "respect for the student", "politeness", "manners", or "concern for how you are perceived" come in? Especially when how on is perceived may limit the amount of "truth" or "learning" that one's audience can experience?

I guess I am saying that there is a place for brutal honesty, in-person, between friends, etc. Not necessarily to the point of cruelty or fanning the flames of a war. Does it belong here, (yes), ah, but in what format? Frequently both parties are being honest (as they know it), and neither can compromise due to what they "know". Remember this is a Board for the "Friendly Discussion of the Martial Arts".

Seriously, you need to take it to PM or email, or use the ignore feature if you know all you end up doing is battling with another member. That way you can contribute to a thread, and not get pissed off. Let the other person show themselves for what they are, while you are just part of the original topic.

Just some random thoughts from an old guy!

-Michael

 

[heretic888]

When using a Bo, Jo, Tonfa or other weapon when an opponent strikes and their attack goes un-blocked the results are very quickly noted that a mistake was made and the motivation for correcting it is increased. The lesson is learned quickly and clearly with no doubt as to whether a mistake was made or not and the result is often not very unpleasant but extremely practical. Granted this may not be the "PC" way and probably goes against the grain of people that think MAs should have their hands held every step along the path.......However, teaching in the above fashion smacks of Zen and little or no conversation needed.

Conversely, when using “rubba-chucks” and similar toys in sparring if mistakes are made there is no motivation to correct the errors of your ways and repeated mistakes are common, often go unchecked or possibly aren’t even considered to be mistakes at all. No lesson is learned and bad habits are quickly formed, repeated and then passed on.Teaching students in this fashion can only do them a disservice in the future.

Okay, I'll tell you my vantagepoint based on the experience I've had...

"Sparring" can inculcate bad habits. Plain and simple.

I have personally found that what works in "sparring" --- even "full-contact" --- may not necessarily work in a real-life confrontation. There are certain things you can get away with, certain things that "work" against sparring partners and friends, that can get you get you killed or mangled on the street or in the bar.

Sure, if the student got smacked down during "sparring" then he probably did make a mistake. He probably messed up. But, just because you succeeded in your "sparring" does not equally mean you did something in a mistaken, messed up way that wouldn't truly work if the metal goes to the metal.

I read on here that Soke stopped teaching something like "sparring" because of the bad habits Westerners were inculcating in their taijutsu. From my experience in kung-fu, I can say this is a definate reality. People were tossed into sparring without any real grasp of the fundamentals, and it led to an emphasis on developing the skills that work in the "mat" or "ring" --- rather then internalizing the essential forms and movement strategies.

In other words, sparring ended up being very bad for their kung fu.

Hey, and that's not even getting into the "ego contests" that often arise around sparring-based practices. But, that's a whole nudder story right there...

Just my opinions, of course. :asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I agree with heretic. But let's not forget that there is room for quite a lot of ego-attributed problems in regular Bujinkan training as well. For instance, recently a lot of people have been very fond of hitting me in the ribs or on the side of the head to point out openings - which is fine and dandy in some circumstances, but what the HELL is the point of doing so once I've already taken you down/out??? It's totally OK for you to hit me once I've already ripped out your larynx, snapped your neck or elbowed you in the face, but what does it prove? In my opinion, nothing more that some Bujinkan members are getting blind to the fact that getting hit affects you!

All this, and I still haven't mentioned the newly formed "as-soon-as-it-starts-to-hurt-the-other-guy's-using-strength"-mafia...

 

[Kreth]

I agree with heretic. But let's not forget that there is room for quite a lot of ego-attributed problems in regular Bujinkan training as well.

Agreed... and some of it comes from the mega-dans, unfortunately... But, I think sparring is valuable, if it is strictly controlled (especially for beginners), and not a flat-out brawl.

All this, and I still haven't mentioned the newly formed "as-soon-as-it-starts-to-hurt-the-other-guy's-using-strength"-mafia...

I call this Bujinkan Tai Chi... There was a dojo in NYC known for this, so much so that I avoided training with any of their students at seminars...

And it appears I'm guilty of contributing to thread drift. This would be a good discussion, I suggest starting a new thread for it.

Jeff

 

[RRouuselot]

Someone just dinged me a bad rep point for a previous post. If I understand this correctly you regularly spar full speed, full contact with wooden weapons. That IMNSHO is a very good way to discover that broken bones hurt and the human body is fragile. I don't need to find that out first hand.

An even better alternative would be to go to the Bronx and scream something like "you're all inbred". Then you'd have some serious fighting to do. Only problem is, once you go to extremes like that, will the benefits really outweigh the eventual loss of practicing students?

Self defense to me also means something that allows you to take care of your body up to old age.

You obviously missed the point.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Yeah, we need to keep the discussions about getting-hit-hard-to-learn-a-lesson for real and metaphorically, separate, so people don't get confused.

This thread is about the metaphoric use (hitting hard with words); if a moderator or admin. is able to split the rest into a new thread about hard contact training, that would be very appreciated.

:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

When using a Bo, Jo, Tonfa or other weapon when an opponent strikes and their attack goes un-blocked the results are very quickly noted that a mistake was made and the motivation for correcting it is increased. The lesson is learned quickly and clearly with no doubt as to whether a mistake was made or not and the result is often not very unpleasant but extremely practical. Granted this may not be the "PC" way and probably goes against the grain of people that think MAs should have their hands held every step along the path.......However, teaching in the above fashion smacks of Zen and little or no conversation needed.



Conversely, when using “rubba-chucks” and similar toys in sparring if mistakes are made there is no motivation to correct the errors of your ways and repeated mistakes are common, often go unchecked or possibly aren’t even considered to be mistakes at all. No lesson is learned and bad habits are quickly formed, repeated and then passed on.Teaching students in this fashion can only do them a disservice in the future.

Just as an aside, has anyone noticed that many of the worst injuries seem to come from the "soft and fluffy" type of dojos? I have seen some bad injuries this way in the Bujinkan. My current teacher has had people state publically that they were scared to come back a second time for fear of injury, yet the worse injuries I have seen have not kept the students from coming back to the next class. By comparisson, I have seen injuries that have made people go to the hospital in dojos that have a reputation for doing things nice, soft and easy.

I think there needs to be an understanding that people can get hurt in training that some dojos don't emphisize. People drop their guard and


Bam

They get hurt.

When I first got to Japan, I had the habit of not keeping my guard up with my rear hand. My current teacher started slapping me in the face whenever he had the chance. It hurt my ego a hell of a lot worse than it injuried my body, but according to him, within three months I had stopped the bad habits that had been let go by my old instructor. Of course, my old instructor in the states was dependent on teaching to put food on the table and took the task of always holding his students hand when they didn't do very well.

Honestly, there have been times when I was afraid I was going to die if I fouled up during training in Japan. Not only did that not happen, but when the brown fecal matter hit the fan in real life I was able to keep my wits about me. Of course, this is all dependent on a teacher knowing your limits and pushing you as far as you could handle and no farther. Difficult to do in some dojos and in the lawyer friendly culture of North America.

 

[RRouuselot]

I kind had a feeling this might go against the grain of some of MT’s members.
My original post was meant to be a metaphor about another subject but I think most didn’t get it. Maybe I didn’t give a good example.

I have had many potential students come to my dojo from the world of “tippy-tap” tournaments….. 99.99% of the time they have their hands in the wrong place for the way people might normally fight…..too low to either block or counter effectively.

They are so used to never having someone “get serious” about hitting their head that their body has adapted it self to having the hands out of position and feeling “safe” that way.

It’s a real eye opener for them when they spar the first time and feel helpless as they get smacked in the head. They are not used to the discomfort of getting hit and go into a kind of shock for a second. Often they are not used to hitting and making hard contact as well. Hitting and getting hit is extremely strenuous and I have seen many people in good shape tire quickly because they don’t stay calm. They usually find what they were previously taught by their old teachers is ineffective.

A bit of stress or pressure is needed to add realism to training….this will help eliminate some or most of the shock of getting hit and the student will learn to remain calm and not lose their wits more so than if they were not used to being hit at all.

Admittedly some dojo do this sort of training for sadistic reasons or just plain old fashion machismo, however, this is not why we train this way. We train this way so the student is better prepared for what may happen in the real world. It’s not exactly fun to get hit but you find out exactly where your weakness is and will correct it more quickly than if someone that beleives in the "warm & fuzzy" approach says:
“gosh, ya know I don’t mean to harp on you or destroy your right to self expression and creativeness but it might be better if you held your hands in this way because in a real fight you might get hit….blah, blah, blah” .

All the “hand holding” and “warm fuzzy” feelings won’t teach you how to stay calm after getting hit…...I don’t enjoy hitting my students while sparring (or getting hit by them) but I DO want them to be able to protect themselves.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just as an aside, has anyone noticed that many of the worst injuries seem to come from the "soft and fluffy" type of dojos? I have seen some bad injuries this way in the Bujinkan. My current teacher has had people state publically that they were scared to come back a second time for fear of injury, yet the worse injuries I have seen have not kept the students from coming back to the next class. By comparisson, I have seen injuries that have made people go to the hospital in dojos that have a reputation for doing things nice, soft and easy.

It's not an easy thing keeping up a facade like that for long - as soon as things go south, these people feel an overwhelming need to correct their mistakes quickly, the pace of which an unsuspecting uke is probably not able to keep up with. Which causes damage eventually.

It's one thing to nurture adaptability. It's quite another not to put as much focus in your A plans as is needed, and instead of relying on your B plans to save the day. Expecting everything to fail the first time without trying to correct yourself doesn't help anyone.

 

[MJS]

Just my .02 here. People train in the arts for a bunch of different reasons. SD, weight loss, an activity to do after work, a place to meet people, etc. IMO, the student should know what he/she is getting themselves into before they enroll. They should be asking questions, watching a class, or even taking a trial class. Contact is part of the MA, therefore, if its something that they don't think that they can handle, then they should look for something else to do.

I've seen people doing line drills with techs. and the attacks that they're throwing are a joke. A 2 hand choke looks more like a shoulder massage than a choke. Now, I'm not saying that you gotta squeeze 'till the person turns 5 shades of blue, but at least put some pressure on. The same thing with a punch. The defender doesnt have to move, because the punch is 6in. away from the target!

While I"m not advocating leaving every class with a broken nose, black eye, or sprained wrist, again, contact is part of the class. If its such a foreign entity to the student, whats gonna happen when they get attacked on the street?

Mike

 

[RRouuselot]

Just my .02 here.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]People train in the arts for a bunch of different reasons. SD, weight loss, an activity to do after work, a place to meet people, etc.

2)[font=&quot] [/font] IMO, the student should know what he/she is getting themselves into before they enroll. They should be asking questions, watching a class, or even taking a trial class.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Contact is part of the MA, therefore, if its something that they don't think that they can handle, then they should look for something else to do.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]I've seen people doing line drills with techs. and the attacks that they're throwing are a joke. A 2 hand choke looks more like a shoulder massage than a choke.

5)[font=&quot] [/font] Now, I'm not saying that you gotta squeeze 'till the person turns 5 shades of blue, but at least put some pressure on. The same thing with a punch. The defender doesnt have to move, because the punch is 6in. away from the target!

While I"m not advocating leaving every class with a broken nose, black eye, or sprained wrist, again, contact is part of the class. If its such a foreign entity to the student, whats gonna happen when they get attacked on the street?

Mike

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I mostly train as part of my daily routine. I am not really concerned with SD anymore….I think I can deal with most things that might come my way. I think joining a dojo to meet people or weight loss might not be such a good reason to join. For socializing there has got to be a better place, and for weight loss……best place would be to join a gym and consult with a fitness trainer. Most MA don’t have a clue on how to lose weight.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]YES! Ask as many questions as you want about everything. If the teacher gives you “questionable” answers or seems to dodge the question (about him, his training, or background) thank him for his time and leave. John Lindsey of E-Budo wrote a good article on finding a dojo.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Could you imagine 2 boxers never making contact, or 2 judoka never grabbing each other…..it would be a joke. MA are not ballet or aerobics with punches….that would be Tae-Bo. In MA you NEED contact.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]I have seen this too. Going that east does nobody any good.

5)[font=&quot] [/font]Nor am I. You do need some amount of “discomfort”. This serves 2 purposes. 1 is to know the tori/defender is doing the technique correctly, the other is so uke/attaker can know how it feels to have the technique done….and thereby gaining respect for it’s use.

 

[yariman]

Do you go to play, or do you go to train?
Training is hard, play is fun.
If serious, expect pain. If not, expect pain.