Testing fees?

[Rumy73]

What would you consider to be a fair mark-up? Surely there's nothing wrong with turning a fair profit.

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Nothing wrong with what, it is the how. A tkd master should represent integrity. He should explain costs honestly. It could be done on a handout and given to new students. But half truths and other misinformation are plainly shady. I attended a school where bb had to purchase a staff. The master stressed that bb students should buy his staffs, because of the quality. Turns out he was buying them from a nearby ma wholesaler and adding twelve bucks to the cost. While he may have saved someone the drive, he was turning a nice profit. He never mentioned the store to students, which would have given them the option.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?

I've never been charged a testing fee in nearly 40 years of training, nor have I ever charged for any test including Dan testing. And I've owned a commercial school. And I've promoted one person as high as 7th Dan. Not necessarily a scam, but it is just another way to generate income. A cert costs about a buck, for a nice one so anything beyond that is profit margin.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Nothing wrong with what, it is the how. A tkd master should represent integrity. He should explain costs honestly. It could be done on a handout and given to new students. But half truths and other misinformation are plainly shady. I attended a school where bb had to purchase a staff. The master stressed that bb students should buy his staffs, because of the quality. Turns out he was buying them from a nearby ma wholesaler and adding twelve bucks to the cost. While he may have saved someone the drive, he was turning a nice profit. He never mentioned the store to students, which would have given them the option.

Saying it was due to the quality is nonsense, but why would he mention the MA store? I'm all for honesty when it comes to business, but letting people know all the places that offer the same product or service for a lower price doesn't make much sense for most people. If I go to McDonald's, they aren't going to inform me that Burger King has a 2 for 1 going on Whoppers. That's not dishonest of them, it's just common sense.

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[Kong Soo Do]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a school charging a testing fee. Anything you do in life that requires a test requires you pay a fee, why not martial arts? We charge out students $40 per month tuition and charge $20 per belt test. We could charge $50 per month with no test fee, but then your paying for testing even if your not testing that month. Being a full time instructor, I put a lot of time and effort into what I teach, 4-5 hours per day and feel I should get compensated for this.

The tuition that you charge isn't compensation?

Are testing times outside of normal class times?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would say the profit becomes "unfair" when the explanation is less than 100% honest. For instance, "yes, the black belt test at $600 is expensive, it's because you are getting a certified black belt from the Kukkiwon in Korea".

What is funny is that the Kukkiwon last I knew (and that is a few years ago) charged $50 for that certificate to the instructor. That is a huge markup.


Personally I think testing fees are wrong. I feel that a practitioner pays for their advancement in blood, sweat and tears!

I also feel that any instructor should be completely up front regarding all costs of training in their system so that their are no hidden or unexpected costs to the practitioner. That is how I would like to be treated and how I treat anyone that trains with me!

 

[IcemanSK]

What is funny is that the Kukkiwon last I knew (and that is a few years ago) charged $50 for that certificate to the instructor. That is a huge markup.


Personally I think testing fees are wrong. I feel that a practitioner pays for their advancement in blood, sweat and tears!

I also feel that any instructor should be completely up front regarding all costs of training in their system so that their are no hidden or unexpected costs to the practitioner. That is how I would like to be treated and how I treat anyone that trains with me!

It's now $70.00 U.S. for Kukkiwon 1st Dan. Other costs may be incurred in a BB test that would increase the cost. (A guest judge, for example) I'm not arguing whether or not the price is too high, just explaining what may contribute to a higher cost of a test.

 

[terrylamar]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a school charging a testing fee. Anything you do in life that requires a test requires you pay a fee, why not martial arts? We charge out students $40 per month tuition and charge $20 per belt test. We could charge $50 per month with no test fee, but then your paying for testing even if your not testing that month. Being a full time instructor, I put a lot of time and effort into what I teach, 4-5 hours per day and feel I should get compensated for this.

I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School. I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School. I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School. I wasn't charged a test fee for High School. This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years.

While I don't feel strongly either for or against, I do lean towards not charging a fee, but I understand why test fees are charged. Much the same way I feel about contracts. As long as the school is up front about cost, why not?

 

[andyjeffries]

I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School. I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School. I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School. I wasn't charged a test fee for High School. This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years.

Someone was charged a fee. You may not have paid it, but there was a fee involved. I don't know about the US, but the same is true over here for studying up to the age of 18. The government pays for state education, including testing fees.

After 18, when young adults go to University they DO have to pay for their learning (often paid for by a "Student Loan" from the government) and this fee is made up of tuition, materials and test fees - although often students only know the final amount, they are welcome to ask for a breakdown.

My driving test had a fee attached to it (even after all the money spent on lessons).

 

[Jaeimseu]

Someone was charged a fee. You may not have paid it, but there was a fee involved. I don't know about the US, but the same is true over here for studying up to the age of 18. The government pays for state education, including testing fees.

After 18, when young adults go to University they DO have to pay for their learning (often paid for by a "Student Loan" from the government) and this fee is made up of tuition, materials and test fees - although often students only know the final amount, they are welcome to ask for a breakdown.

My driving test had a fee attached to it (even after all the money spent on lessons).

Tax money must go somewhere...

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[Rumy73]

Saying it was due to the quality is nonsense, but why would he mention the MA store? I'm all for honesty when it comes to business, but letting people know all the places that offer the same product or service for a lower price doesn't make much sense for most people. If I go to McDonald's, they aren't going to inform me that Burger King has a 2 for 1 going on Whoppers. That's not dishonest of them, it's just common sense.

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I do not think he had to mention the store. It is the context.

 

[Earl Weiss]

A couple of important points;

A. As some poster posters point out, whether or not a fee is charged is a distant second in importance to up front disclosure. (On day one my new students gets a handbook disclosing fees thru 4th Dan. ) The issue in our industry is "Surprise Fees" after the student has invested time energy and $. Wth full disclousure of fees up front there is no argument about fees being neccessary or not.

B. I like to think that although we are in a "business" to some extent, what we do is different. AFAIAC any student or parent who thinks it's a simple merchant / customer relationship can go somewhere else.

FWIW, just the other day I had a father who was taking his sone out of town for a month 3 days before a test (his green stripe) ask that I test him early. As a rule I do not do this. Having individual tests to fit schedules is not workeable. I let them test late after they return IF THEY ARE READY. Kid is gone for a month and forgets a lot, so no late test. When next quarterly test comes around he is still not ready. When we told him he starts crying saying the father will be upset. (We Evaluate all students before a test to see if they are ready and I had about 10 who were not, primarily because they took a summer month off.) Father says son is ready (because the son told him he was a week earlier) accuses me of doing it to make money by making the son train 3 more months, Since we are at a park district he goes to the office and says he wants the Sept. Payment refunded. I tell the office to do it, anyone not happy should get their $ back. Told him the week before the son was told he wasn't ready because he did not know material, the material was reviewed at that time (prior Wed.) and on this day - Monday - he still did not know it. Told the faher that if he had stayed and watched the class we wouldn't be having this issue. When he heard this he told the office (Let me think about it.)

This is the type of student / parent you can afford to lose.

If a student does not pass, there is no charge for re test. I have had student leave after not passing. Had one mom pull her daughter out in the middle of a class where she was not promoted.

Sometin\mes they go another school and stop by months later tellingus about their new belt.

 

[terrylamar]

Someone was charged a fee. You may not have paid it, but there was a fee involved. I don't know about the US, but the same is true over here for studying up to the age of 18. The government pays for state education, including testing fees.

After 18, when young adults go to University they DO have to pay for their learning (often paid for by a "Student Loan" from the government) and this fee is made up of tuition, materials and test fees - although often students only know the final amount, they are welcome to ask for a breakdown.

My driving test had a fee attached to it (even after all the money spent on lessons).

The "government's" money, is our money, money we earned, the government didn't earn it, they took it from us.

 

[AMP-RYU]

The tuition that you charge isn't compensation?

Are testing times outside of normal class times?

I charge $40 a month, where most schools anymore are upwards of $100 per month or more, I feel that what I charge for tuition and testing fees is plenty fair. And yes we test outside of class times on a Saturday.

 

[AMP-RYU]

("I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School. I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School. I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School. I wasn't charged a test fee for High School. This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years.

While I don't feel strongly either for or against, I do lean towards not charging a fee, but I understand why test fees are charged. Much the same way I feel about contracts. As long as the school is up front about cost, why not?

Terry L. Davis")

​

You don't have to be a smart ***, someone IE tax money paid for all that testing, I had to pay $50 to take the SAT!, Everything I did through college required me to pay, I paid per credit hour, I paid $140 per book, and I paid for parking on campus. What I am getting at is whether or not your "paying" a testing fee, it is still included in the price you pay whether its extra or not. I charge $40 per month plus a $20 testing fee every few months, the school up the road charges $60 per month with "no" testing fees. By the time the student up the road tests in 3 months they paid $60 for their test, where my students still only paid $20. I do tell students up front about all cost involved, monthly tuition, testing, Gi purchase and any sparring related gear. Yes I charge for my Gi's, and I will tell you why. Give a student a free Gi and they will treat it like a free Gi, charge a student $30 and they will take care of it. We also DO NOT share sparring gear, staph is nasty. So if students want to spar in class they must purchase basic sparring gear, head, hands, and feet. I don't see any problem with any of it, as long as they are told upfront.

 

[WaterGal]

I attended a school where bb had to purchase a staff. The master stressed that bb students should buy his staffs, because of the quality. Turns out he was buying them from a nearby ma wholesaler and adding twelve bucks to the cost. While he may have saved someone the drive, he was turning a nice profit. He never mentioned the store to students, which would have given them the option.

Question - could a student actually have gone to that wholesaler and bought the staff at the wholesale price? Wholesalers give much better prices to schools, who buy things in bulk, compared with individual buyers.

For example, we pay about $100 for a set of WTF sparring gear & bag, which we retail at $150. A student could, if they wanted, go on the Dynamics website and buy the exact same stuff (without our logo) directly from them - for about $175. We make a decent profit, our students save some money, win-win.

 

[WaterGal]

I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School. I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School. I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School. I wasn't charged a test fee for High School. This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years.

While I don't feel strongly either for or against, I do lean towards not charging a fee, but I understand why test fees are charged. Much the same way I feel about contracts. As long as the school is up front about cost, why not?

Really? You never took the SATs, AP tests or a driving test? You paid for all that. (My parents spent probably $400 on AP tests, and I know people who did a lot more).

Also, your school district really didn't use standardized testing of any kind, or do any occupational or psychological evaluations for gifted or special needs kids? Because that all costs money too, which your parents paid for via their tax dollars.

Tests for professional accreditations also usually cost money, often quite a lot, as does the exam to test out of a college class (even at community college).

 

[tshadowchaser]

I may be a little different in my thoughts on testing fees. I feel that if a student pays their weekly/monthly fees that should be enough.
I test my students every time they are in class. I know what they can and can not do. When they are ready for promotion I may give them a formal test and then again I may just tell them they signed in incorrectly and give them a small amount of time to figure out what I am saying.
Students should test themselves every time they enter class and instructors should test the student every class. Working hard on material needed for the next level or on anything passed on to them in class is part of what being a student is all about.
My testing considers all of what a students give in each and every class. They earn their ranks with hard work, sweat, maybe blood, and the ability to pass on what they have learned.
If I charge students for class I believe I have an agreement with them on what they will pay. If at some time they need sparring equipment I have some they can use until they decide or can afford to buy their own. If they want private lessons then I may consider charging them a little extra but most only want the lessons they get each night.
As others have said the fees should be explained on the first day of class and should be repeated (if you charge for testing) periodically in class to all

 

[terrylamar]

Really? You never took the SATs, AP tests or a driving test? You paid for all that. (My parents spent probably $400 on AP tests, and I know people who did a lot more).

Also, your school district really didn't use standardized testing of any kind, or do any occupational or psychological evaluations for gifted or special needs kids? Because that all costs money too, which your parents paid for via their tax dollars.

Tests for professional accreditations also usually cost money, often quite a lot, as does the exam to test out of a college class (even at community college).

I'm not sure what has everyone's panties in a wad. I refuted a claim a poster made about a fee being charged for every test by citing examples. Further, these examples, the Public School System, more closely resemble a Martial Arts School Program than most of the other examples cited. I can't help but think that some of you are feeling guilty about charging for a test by the defensive comments you are making. I don't care what your business plan is, that is between you and your students and their parents, as the case may be. You have to pay the bills, not me. If you want to include everything in your tuition or charge separately for testing, good for you. Quit being so defensive and participate in the discussion!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Last time I checked, the government wasn't ponying up any cash to pay for the cost of a martial arts program.

We charge a testing fee. It varies by rank, as does the test itself. Nobody is required to test. Nobody fails. If they're not ready, they don't test. If they can't pass a section at the actual test, their promotion is "pending" till they complete. The ONLY thing I've ever seen put a promotion on hold was a failed break, generally with younger, newer, students.

Our program costs $40 a month for YMCA members. $60 for nonmembers. We offer 5 classes each week.
I haven't heard anybody in our program suggest that the testing fees are an issue.


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[Earl Weiss]

. I refuted a claim a poster made about a fee being charged for every test by citing examples. Further, these examples, the Public School System, more closely resemble a Martial Arts School Program than most of the other examples cited. !

IMNSHO - No they are not.

Public Schools - Public. MA Schools - Not.

Public Schools - Attendance required until a certain age . MA schools - not.
Public Schools - Acceptable to turn ou a percentage of mediocre products and have them advance. MA schools, hopefuly not.
Public Schools - Teachers keep their jobs although often large numbers of their products fail to meet standards. MA schools - hopefuly not.
Public schools - No worries about paying the bills . MA schools - yes.