Hello, fellow martial artists. Dang, someone took that thread title.

[Yanli]

I'm pretty sure this is near universal. Do you know any arts that allow a teacher to promote someone to a higher level than the teacher?

That would be entirely up to the 4th Dan. If they want to promote high than 3rd, they will need to seek out training and promotion.

I don't think that's common at all.

I suspect you're missing something.

I am not speaking of a teacher promoting someone at a higher rank than themselves, but a teacher that can only promote someone to a black belt when they are a 4th degree.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I understand your point about it being odd to get 1st Dan without knowing KKW material. However, there is a local Mu Duk Kwan school that is under the KKW banner and test all belts, including dan ranks, under the old Chang Hon curriculum.

That's even weirder, since the Moo Duk Kwan started out with the Pinan when it was Tang Soo Do, changed to the Palgwae with the unification, then went back to the Pinan forms when part of the MDK left the unification and went back to Tang Soo Do. That was eventually changed to Soo Bahk Do, but I believe still uses the same forms. The Chang Hon forms are no part of that. So the lineage of that school is probably somewhat sketchy.

No one there learns the Tae Guk patterns, yet they are all recognized by the KKW. I don't understand that, unless the school was grandfathered in at some point.

I do not believe there is a system for grandfathering ranks. There are, however, plenty of people with KKW rank who will sign the papers to turn your non-KKW rank into KKW rank. The KKW does not sanction this, but there is no enforcement and never will be.
There are a few problems with this.
When you sign the KKW promotion form, you are attesting that the person you are recommending meets the KKW requirements. So if they don't know the Taegeuk forms, you're lying. Happens all the time, but I have issues with the dishonesty involved.
When this sort of conversion/assimilation occurs, there may not ever be an actual physical meeting between the two people. Just mail them a check.
The school you mention needs someone with KKW rank of 4th Dan or higher to sign off on promotions. They may have earned that rank, or it may have been a transfer. But in either case, the fact that they're offering KKW rank without teaching KKW curriculum calls their integrity into question. Personally, I think integrity is important.
Our students can get Moo Duk Kwan and/or KKW certification. But if they want KKW rank, they must know the KKW curriculum.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am not speaking of a teacher promoting someone at a higher rank than themselves, but a teacher that can only promote someone to a black belt when they are a 4th degree.

That is standard in KKW schools. The Kukkiwon considers 4th Dan to be the first teaching rank. After all, it's not at all uncommon for KKW schools to award 1st Dan (or Poom) after just a year of training. 1st Dan (or poom) is very much a beginner rank in the eyes of the KKW.
Organizations get to set their own rules.

 

[Ji Yuu]

That's even weirder, since the Moo Duk Kwan started out with the Pinan when it was Tang Soo Do, changed to the Palgwae with the unification, then went back to the Pinan forms when part of the MDK left the unification and went back to Tang Soo Do. That was eventually changed to Soo Bahk Do, but I believe still uses the same forms. The Chang Hon forms are no part of that. So the lineage of that school is probably somewhat sketchy.

I do not believe there is a system for grandfathering ranks. There are, however, plenty of people with KKW rank who will sign the papers to turn your non-KKW rank into KKW rank. The KKW does not sanction this, but there is no enforcement and never will be.
There are a few problems with this.
When you sign the KKW promotion form, you are attesting that the person you are recommending meets the KKW requirements. So if they don't know the Taegeuk forms, you're lying. Happens all the time, but I have issues with the dishonesty involved.
When this sort of conversion/assimilation occurs, there may not ever be an actual physical meeting between the two people. Just mail them a check.
The school you mention needs someone with KKW rank of 4th Dan or higher to sign off on promotions. They may have earned that rank, or it may have been a transfer. But in either case, the fact that they're offering KKW rank without teaching KKW curriculum calls their integrity into question. Personally, I think integrity is important.
Our students can get Moo Duk Kwan and/or KKW certification. But if they want KKW rank, they must know the KKW curriculum.

I was hesitant to say some instructors would be lying on the said forms. I, too, have issues with such dishonesty.

And yes, the lineage seems to get foggy the further you dig into it.

 

[Ji Yuu]

That is standard in KKW schools. The Kukkiwon considers 4th Dan to be the first teaching rank. After all, it's not at all uncommon for KKW schools to award 1st Dan (or Poom) after just a year of training. 1st Dan (or poom) is very much a beginner rank in the eyes of the KKW.
Organizations get to set their own rules.

1 year?! Wow. When I started in 1975, we had 10 grade system and it took the average person 8 years to get to black. In fact, our junior instructors were red belts (1st gup).

 

[Dirty Dog]

1 year?! Wow. When I started in 1975, we had 10 grade system and it took the average person 8 years to get to black. In fact, our junior instructors were red belts (1st gup).

I'm guessing you weren't in Korea. But it's also not uncommon in the US today to see 1-2 years to 1st Dan.

 

[Ji Yuu]

I'm guessing you weren't in Korea. But it's also not uncommon in the US today to see 1-2 years to 1st Dan.

Not in Korea. The school was in US. The head of the school, however, was Korean; Grandmaster Chae Teok Goh. He's now retired.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It all depends on the instructor's/style's philosophy on belt ranks. And why I prefer year in style rather than rank when trying to get a feel for someone's abilities. That's still not perfect, but better than the crapshoot that is having a blackbelt.

 

[Ji Yuu]

It all depends on the instructor's/style's philosophy on belt ranks. And why I prefer year in style rather than rank when trying to get a feel for someone's abilities. That's still not perfect, but better than the crapshoot that is having a blackbelt.

I agree with you. One who has 20+ years experience of training/practice/exploring one art and holding a black belt vs one who has 1-2 years experience in the same art and holding the same rank. I think it's obvious which would likely be the more capable martial artist.