Has Wing Chun "gone off course"?

[Steve]

I can think of a bunch of solutions to this. If you don't train Wing Chun how do you know what Wing Chun has or hasn't? If the opponent grabs my wrist I can:

-counter with a Tan Da

-counter with a Gwai Jeurn and break his wrist if he doesn't let go.

-counter with a Kwan Sao and Po Pai Jeung.

-counter with a Heun Sau and Pak Da.

There you go. 3 solutions to the "hand grab" situation.

Traditional Wing Chun can work well against "modern" fighters, and one way of doing this is sparring with one Wing Chun fighter doing Wing Chun only, and the other Wing Chun fighter using techniques from other styles (boxing, kickboxing, etc.).

This is a terrible idea and how training models break down entirely, so that we get things like WC anti-grappling or ninjutsu anti-bjj techniques. It's as bad as a BJJ guy who has never sparred with weapons talking about knife defense.

I would say sparring with actual kickboxers, boxers, wrestlers, mma-ists or what have you, is how you might be able to apply your skills against "modern" fighters (whatever that may mean).

 

[Martial D]

The problem isn't with the system itself, but one could argue how it is taught(for the most part) and how it is viewed by those teaching it could be argued to be 'off course'. This of course all depends on the course, of course. A horse, of course.....

Sorry, I went off track there a little.

For pure fighting, sure, a lot of it seems to be like driving in nails with the wooden end of the hammer, but some people have figured out which end to hold it by too. Those ones tend to use it situationally even if they prefer to call it 'pure wing chun' (Hi DanT)

But there is also the other angle, doing it can be fun, and you always feel very mentally focused when you leave the class. If that is the course..to get some exercise, build up your reflexes and coordination, get out of the house and have some fun, then the course is right on track.

 

[Steve]

FWIW, right or wrong, I have the impression that @JowGaWolf probably has a pretty good handle on using his art outside of his school. I have this impression because he speaks enthusiastically about sparring with other martial artists from diverse backgrounds. Not just guys in his school who at one point have done something else, but, well, pretty much anyone. I think this is excellent.

Another example would be @Tony Dismukes, who trains in about a dozen styles (maybe slightly exaggerated ) and welcomes challenges to what he does and why.

Lastly, this kind of diversity in a training model is institutional and also individual. In other words, if your instructor does this, it will help your training, even if you don't. His openness to diverse feedback will inform what and how he teaches you.

It's better if you also do this as a student. Even better if everyone in the school is involved.

Just to be clear, I'm not commenting on WC training good or bad. I'm strictly commenting on the training aspect to this being discussed by DanT and Drop Bear.

 

[ShortBridge]

I can think of a bunch of solutions to this. If you don't train Wing Chun how do you know what Wing Chun has or hasn't? ....

Right. Every thread, like clockwork. If he never posted posted again, we would all know that his perspective is that Wing Chun is lacking and has some technical ideas about how it should be fixed. Yet, your statement above sums it up perfectly. He doesn't actually train Wing Chun at all appears to be based on what he's seen on-line. But, I think we can count on him to continue posting some similar statement to every Wing Chun thread.

Has Wing Chun gone, off-course? I would say...yeah, kind of.

It is an anomaly among a family of southern, short-bridge systems in that is was exported and commercialized. This resulted in a lot of variance and a lot of formality and very westernized curriculum that I don't think was common traditionally in China. The thing I most commonly read about Wing Chun here (usually by people who don't know it) is that it needs MORE of that. More cross training, more ring fighting, more level testing and certifying, none of which were original to Wing Chun. Then we've got the "chi-sao should be an Olympic sport" crowd. That is all off-the-rails in my opinion.

I've met some great Wing Chun players, including some who used their skills professionally and had no complaints about it's efficacy. None of them have YouTube videos, by the way, which is considered the only source of truth to many modern martial artists and aspirings.

There are still people and places who I think are training Wing Chun well and seem satisfied with it. I don't think the system is lost, but you can't look to the most commercial branches, books, movies, YouTube, and tournaments to find it. In that way, it is the same as hundreds of other great systems that are being preserved and are hiding in plain sight.

 

[DanT]

This is a terrible idea and how training models break down entirely, so that we get things like WC anti-grappling or ninjutsu anti-bjj techniques. It's as bad as a BJJ guy who has never sparred with weapons talking about knife defense.

I would say sparring with actual kickboxers, boxers, wrestlers, mma-ists or what have you, is how you might be able to apply your skills against "modern" fighters (whatever that may mean).

I already clairified but I'm assuming you missed my post: I'm not suggesting to have someone attack you with fake boxing. Everyone I train with has training in other styles (black belts in TKD or Karate, national level kickboxers, etc). I am suggesting having them use those styles, so it will be WC vs Kickboxing rather than WC vs WC.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Right. Every thread, like clockwork. If he never posted posted again, we would all know that his perspective is that Wing Chun is lacking and has some technical ideas about how it should be fixed. Yet, your statement above sums it up perfectly. He doesn't actually train Wing Chun at all appears to be based on what he's seen on-line. But, I think we can count on him to continue posting some similar statement to every Wing Chun thread.

I think you are talking about me here. Yes, I did train WC 44 years ago but I don't train WC today. Even the person who taught me the WC system doesn't train WC any more. I assume he is not Yeh Men's best student.

But I do use the WC principle such as to protect the center from inside out. I also use the principle from other MA system such as to protect the center from outside in.

 

[ShortBridge]

I have no criticisms of your training. I've looked at your web site and I'm actually interested in what you do and would love a chance to train with you.

But, you don't know what you think you know about Wing Chun and I wish you should stop trolling in every Wing Chun discussion implying that you do. You think we all have a blind spot and you're here to enlighten us, well first of all, we are not all one thing. Second, you are missing your own blind spots, as people focused to much on educating others tend to be. Why not take the energy you seem to have for trying to set us straight and put it into your own training?

If you want to know about Wing Chun, ask questions rather than make statements and consider the source as you get answers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He doesn't actually train Wing Chun at all appears to be based on what he's seen on-line.

Here is a clip to prove that I had trained WC back in 1973 when "on-line" was not even existed.

Again, please stay on the topic and leave "YOU" and "I" out of the discussion. How about I don't criticize your WC skill, and you don't criticize my WC skill. Let's just talk about MA. If you don't agree with my opinion, you can explain yours. You don't have to say thing such as

- You don't know WC.
- You learn WC online.
- Your WC is bad.
- Your WC is not pure.
- You have a bad WC teacher.
- ...

I have said many good things about WC such as

- center line,
- block and strike at the same time,
- forward pressure,
- ...

I have also pointed out some weakness in WC such as:

- move arm without move body during SNT training stage.
- lack of body rotation.
- lack of grappling.
- ...

 

[ShortBridge]

I didn't accuse you of lying about having done some Wing Chun training 44 years ago.

But, go ahead, assume that you know everything, keep trolling. I'll consider my ability to not take the bait part of my own training, if that's how it has to be.

 

[Steve]

I already clairified but I'm assuming you missed my post: I'm not suggesting to have someone attack you with fake boxing. Everyone I train with has training in other styles (black belts in TKD or Karate, national level kickboxers, etc). I am suggesting having them use those styles, so it will be WC vs Kickboxing rather than WC vs WC.

Yeah, I get it. Better than nothing, I suppose. But one of the things about any technique is using it against a variety of people at a variety of skill levels. Having a guy in the school with some experience is a step in the right direction. It's just a very, very small step.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But, go ahead, assume that you know everything, keep trolling.

It's not fair for you to say that I'm trolling. I may have shared more clips and pictures in this forum than most of the members have. Everything that I have said, I try to prove it as much as I can. You said that I learned WC on-line. I have to find an old clip to prove that I didn't. That's not what a person who is trolling will normally do.

I love MA and I love to discuss MA. WC is only one of my "cross training" systems. I always look at a particular MA system from a "general" MA point of view.

When some said that the

- long fist system doesn't know how to protect center,
- Shuai Chiao system doesn't have ground game,
- Preying mantis system has power generation issue.
- Baji system has speed generation issue.
- Taiji push is a bad idea.
- Bagua system has cross legs issue.
- XingYi system always move leading leg first is risky.
- ...

I would say that I agree with that person 100%. I'm not just criticize WC. I criticize all MA systems.

 

[ShortBridge]

Okay. Critize all martial arts systems. Just don't be surprised when people devoted to those systems respond negatively.


Personally, I am more focused on developing myself than tearing others down.

For the record: Kung Fu Wang did not learn Wing Chun on-line. He had some experience with it 44 years ago.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For the record: Kung Fu Wang did not learn Wing Chun on-line. He had some experience with it 44 years ago.

Thanks for clear that one up.

Okay. Critize all martial arts systems. Just don't be surprised when people devoted to those systems respond negatively.

I don't mind people responds to my post negatively.

In another forum, All Taiji guys hate me. But it won't stop me from saying, "Push your opponent away is a bad idea. You should keep your friend close but your enemy closer."

IMO, if I'm afraid of saying something from the bottom of my heart, I should not get involve with online discussion in the first place.

 

[ShortBridge]

In another forum, All Taiji guys hate me. But it won't stop me from saying, "Push your opponent away is a bad idea. You should keep your friend close but your enemy closer."

As long as that makes you happy, I guess.

Tell me though, have you managed to change taiji? Have you helped anyone become better at what they do? Or do you just do this to make yourself feel superior?

To be honest, I don't hate you. I looked you up and I think I would like you in real life and I suspect that given the chance, hands on, I could learn a lot from you and would enjoy the experience. Who knows, you might feel the same about me afterward.

But the way you explain your on-line activity in this thread is exactly that of an internet troll.

 

[wckf92]

I have also pointed out some weakness in ***my*** WC such as:

- move arm without move body during SNT training stage.
- lack of body rotation.
- lack of grappling.

...fixed that for ya

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Tell me though, have you managed to change taiji? Have you helped anyone become better at what they do? Or do you just do this to make yourself feel superior?

Both my teacher and I had tried to change Taiji by adding the "leg skill" (such as cut, hook, lift, twist, scoop, bite, break, ...) back into Taiji.

For example, to add

- leg seize into Peng.
- leg spring into Lu.
- Inner hooking into Ji.
- outer hooking into An.
- foot sweep into cloud hand.
- front cut into brush knee.
- ...

But Taiji guys took that as an insult. They believed that Taiji is so perfect and no addition will be needed (sound familiar, does it?). That task was only done inside the Chang Taiji system.

Do I feel superior? If I can just help one person in MA, my time that spent on-line will be worthwhile. If this online information can be kept and last forever, 1000 years from today someone will still remember a Chinaman had evolved WC "Tan Da" into "rhino guard" 1000 years ago.

 

[ShortBridge]

And you're sure that you understand the training that goes on in my class and it's limitations?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And you're sure that you understand the training that goes on in my class and it's limitations?

That will be up to you whether you want to share your information or not. I can only speak from my point of view.

For each and every post that I put up, should I always attach:

- This is only my point of view.
- I can only speed for myself.
- In my limited experience.
- my 0.2 cent.
- ...

I have always assumed that's the default. Of course I can only speak what I know and you can only speak what you know. This is called "online discussion" and "information sharing".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And you're sure that you understand the training that goes on in my class and it's limitations?

When someone said that his Taiji has "leg twist". I politely asked him to put up a clip. Unfortunately that clip has not been seen since.

 

[Marnetmar]

Okay. Critize all martial arts systems. Just don't be surprised when people devoted to those systems respond negatively.


Personally, I am more focused on developing myself than tearing others down.

For the record: Kung Fu Wang did not learn Wing Chun on-line. He had some experience with it 44 years ago.

You're purposely misinterpreting KFW's posts acting like a manipulative dolt in the process.