Has there ever been a tournament/competition combining ITF and WTF?

[TKDinAK]

I've been watching quite a few sparring vids on youtube, both ITF and WTF. Couldn't find anything pitting the two styles against the other.

Has there ever been anything like this? Or maybe open competitions going on today?

I know the scoring is different with the hogu and such... I just thought that with the differences in styles, it could make an interesting matchup.

 

[Twin Fist]

the problem would be "which scoring system would you use"

if you allow head shots?

 

[Tez3]

the problem would be "which scoring system would you use"

if you allow head shots?

Make up a new set of rules just for that? head shots for definite. Use MMA refs for neutrality and karate judges lol!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Rules would be an issue I would think. Punches to the head and itf would win, no punches to the head and wtf wins. There may be the odd exception, but I imagine thats the way it would go. The punches to the head thing is a huge difference.

 

[MSUTKD]

The punches to the head thing is a huge difference.

I disagree. The fighter will make the difference, not the targets.

 

[terryl965]

Yea but some of you forget most ITF tournaments are control hitting that means no real power and the Olympic sparring is full contact even punches to the body can be thrown with all your power. the light head contact from a control punch is ne match for a real backswing to the head.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I disagree. The fighter will make the difference, not the targets.

Of course the fighter will make the difference. But Im assuming the two fighters are of equal level in their set field. Obviously if an elite wtf guy comes up against an itf "hobbiest" than the wtf guy will win irrespective of the rules, and vice versa. But, get steven lopez vs the world number 1 in itf and use itf rules and I dont think steven has a chance, change the rules to wtf and steven wipes the floor with the itf guy in my opinion.

 

[Cyriacus]

I can find plenty of ITF VS Jhoon Rhee, and a couple of ITF VS WTF, but the ITFVWTF ones are bad examples, in that both arent good fighters.
So theres that.

Its worth remembering that Semi Contact Sparring can also teach a different measure of Tactics, since You need to assume nothing is going to have optimal effect. When You connect a good strike, You immediately guard against the counter. Full Contact is like taking off a leash, and keeping the reaction.

It would prove nothing for either Org, but itd be fun to watch.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I can find plenty of ITF VS Jhoon Rhee, and a couple of ITF VS WTF, but the ITFVWTF ones are bad examples, in that both arent good fighters.
So theres that.

Its worth remembering that Semi Contact Sparring can also teach a different measure of Tactics, since You need to assume nothing is going to have optimal effect. When You connect a good strike, You immediately guard against the counter. Full Contact is like taking off a leash, and keeping the reaction.

It would prove nothing for either Org, but itd be fun to watch.

anyone Ive ever met who does itf has done full contact, so there must be a few clubs around not doing the light contact thing. You're right though, it would prove nothing for either org, but it sure would be fun to watch.

 

[TKDinAK]

Is there really that much of a difference between the power of the strikes thrown in WTF matches and the ITF? I'm a newbie at this, so I have only seen vids... but there are some pretty hard kicks and punches landed in most of the ITF matches I've seen.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Is there really that much of a difference between the power of the strikes thrown in WTF matches and the ITF? I'm a newbie at this, so I have only seen vids... but there are some pretty hard kicks and punches landed in most of the ITF matches I've seen.

From what Ive read, it depends on the rules of the individual competition. I asked an itf friend of mine and he said that they train full contact in the dojang but from one competition to another it can vary. He only fights in full contact comps though.

 

[mastercole]

I've been watching quite a few sparring vids on youtube, both ITF and WTF. Couldn't find anything pitting the two styles against the other.

Has there ever been anything like this? Or maybe open competitions going on today?

I know the scoring is different with the hogu and such... I just thought that with the differences in styles, it could make an interesting matchup.

Not at the elite world level. But at lower levels, it has actually been going on for decades. Here is something recent, ITF players and WTF players competing at an international event in South Korea designed for foreigners participation. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2011/04/136_68480.html Then we have a gesture by CISM Taekwondo, the World Military's Taekwondo governing authority, where they agreed to attempt an integration of ITF forms into CISM Taekwondo World Championships. This almost happened, until North Korea's United Front Department Directive and Propaganda, ONCE AGAIN, got in the way and shot all the progress down.

How so? In a very recently published article, the key member of the ITF's so-called merger committee, Ri Yong Son - who was shaking hands with Dae Soon Lee of South Korea in a photo, violated his signed agreement. Let's look at Executive Director General of the ITF Ri Yong Son's statements about the WTF, whom he claims he wants to work with, to the British media.

"Olympic taekwondo is not taekwondo," said Ri Yong Son, chief director of
the International Taekwondo Federation. "There is no understanding of the
martial arts philosophy."

"They never punch," he said of Olympic taekwondo players. "That is not a
good way to fight."

This is the same Ri Yong Son who shows up at "integration talks" with the WTF, signs and agreement that each party will respect the other, is asked by the WTF to present documents to move forward with the integration of ITF sparring and forms into WTF events. While the WTF is waiting, for 5 years now, the ITF Integration Committee director repeated the North Korean propaganda to the media.

Now this latest news, just a day ago:

CISM

The ITF Will Not Be Part of the World Military Championships

The information was given by the WTF to masTaekwondo.com this Friday morning (Seoul time), and they informed that during the CISM World Military Taekwondo Championships, the ITF Poomsaes will not be present.

So, I don't think so.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Not at the elite world level. But at lower levels, it has actually been going on for decades. Here is something recent, ITF players and WTF players competing at an international event in South Korea designed for foreigners participation. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2011/04/136_68480.html Then we have a gesture by CISM Taekwondo, the World Military's Taekwondo governing authority, where they agreed to attempt an integration of ITF forms into CISM Taekwondo World Championships. This almost happened, until North Korea's United Front Department Directive and Propaganda, ONCE AGAIN, got in the way and shot all the progress down.

How so? In a very recently published article, the key member of the ITF's so-called merger committee, Ri Yong Son - who was shaking hands with Dae Soon Lee of South Korea in a photo, violated his signed agreement. Let's look at Executive Director General of the ITF Ri Yong Son's statements about the WTF, whom he claims he wants to work with, to the British media.

"Olympic taekwondo is not taekwondo," said Ri Yong Son, chief director of
the International Taekwondo Federation. "There is no understanding of the
martial arts philosophy."

"They never punch," he said of Olympic taekwondo players. "That is not a
good way to fight."

This is the same Ri Yong Son who shows up at "integration talks" with the WTF, signs and agreement that each party will respect the other, is asked by the WTF to present documents to move forward with the integration of ITF sparring and forms into WTF events. While the WTF is waiting, for 5 years now, the ITF Integration Committee director repeated the North Korean propaganda to the media.

Now this latest news, just a day ago:

CISM

The ITF Will Not Be Part of the World Military Championships

The information was given by the WTF to masTaekwondo.com this Friday morning (Seoul time), and they informed that during the CISM World Military Taekwondo Championships, the ITF Poomsaes will not be present.

So, I don't think so.

If they were ever to unite, what do you believe the "official" sparring rules for competition would be? would one side win out completely or they would they try and find a happy medium that suits both parties?

 

[mastercole]

If they were ever to unite, what do you believe the "official" sparring rules for competition would be? would one side win out completely or they would they try and find a happy medium that suits both parties?

I have no opinion. My understanding is that this offer has been presented to the ITF, and when and if they submit their full set of rules and regulations it can be finalized.

Roughly;

1) WTF and ITF must abide by the rules and regulations of the IOC

2) Poomsae/Tul can be separate division. Each member has free choice of competition division, WTF or ITF.

3) separate and combined sparring division. Separate Division: WTF and ITF keeps individual rules with separate divisions according to those rules.

Combined Division for sparring:

- all strikes are full contact
- all ITF hand skills are allowed to face and body
- all kicking skills are allowed to face and body
- hand skill or kicking skill knockout wins the match
- hand skills to face score 1 point. Turning hand skills 2 points
- kicking skills to face score 2 points. Turning kick skills scores 3 points
- EBP scores all body contact. Referee scores face contact and turning skills
- all WTF equipment worn in addition to ITF hand guard

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I have no opinion. My understanding is that this offer has been presented to the ITF, and when and if they submit their full set of rules and regulations it can be finalized.

Roughly;

1) WTF and ITF must abide by the rules and regulations of the IOC

2) Poomsae/Tul can be separate division. Each member has free choice of competition division, WTF or ITF.

3) separate and combined sparring division. Separate Division: WTF and ITF keeps individual rules with separate divisions according to those rules.

Combined Division for sparring:

- all strikes are full contact
- all ITF hand skills are allowed to face and body
- all kicking skills are allowed to face and body
- hand skill or kicking skill knockout wins the match
- hand skills to face score 1 point. Turning hand skills 2 points
- kicking skills to face score 2 points. Turning kick skills scores 3 points
- EBP scores all body contact. Referee scores face contact and turning skills
- all WTF equipment worn in addition to ITF hand guard

sounds good

 

[TKDinAK]

anyone Ive ever met who does itf has done full contact, so there must be a few clubs around not doing the light contact thing. You're right though, it would prove nothing for either org, but it sure would be fun to watch.

I've only attended one competition (to watch)... and that was an in-house comp to get ready for the local one coming up the end of this month. The contact I saw was something less than full... being that it was all students who knew and trained together... but it was still fast and hard. One guy got knocked down by a punch to the head, and had to take a few minutes to regain his senses. The ref told the puncher that he started his punch too far back and the refs will see that as putting too much behind it.

And yes... I wasn't thinking that it would prove anything... just that it would be very interesting to see how the styles match up... and how the fighters would go about defending and attacking something they are not used to seeing.

In my opinion, watching WTF fights are fun because of all the flying and spinning. But there's something very cool about seeing the punches added with the ITF fights. Because of that, I like watching the ITF matches more. Seems less gimicky and straight forward than the WTF. Just my opinion...

 

[mastercole]

I've only attended one competition (to watch)... and that was an in-house comp to get ready for the local one coming up the end of this month. The contact I saw was something less than full... being that it was all students who knew and trained together... but it was still fast and hard. One guy got knocked down by a punch to the head, and had to take a few minutes to regain his senses. The ref told the puncher that he started his punch too far back and the refs will see that as putting too much behind it.

And yes... I wasn't thinking that it would prove anything... just that it would be very interesting to see how the styles match up... and how the fighters would go about defending and attacking something they are not used to seeing.

In my opinion, watching WTF fights are fun because of all the flying and spinning. But there's something very cool about seeing the punches added with the ITF fights. Because of that, I like watching the ITF matches more. Seems less gimicky and straight forward than the WTF. Just my opinion...

I never saw hardly any flying in WTF matches.

 

[TKDinAK]

I never saw hardly any flying in WTF matches.

Sorry... just a generalization...

 

[Cyriacus]

Is there really that much of a difference between the power of the strikes thrown in WTF matches and the ITF? I'm a newbie at this, so I have only seen vids... but there are some pretty hard kicks and punches landed in most of the ITF matches I've seen.

Its complicated.
Both of them are Powerful in and of themselves.
The difference is that the KKW WTF Standard tends to rely on Hip Rotation, where the ITF can be more about Ballistic Leg Extension.

 

[TKDinAK]

Its complicated.
Both of them are Powerful in and of themselves.
The difference is that the KKW WTF Standard tends to rely on Hip Rotation, where the ITF can be more about Ballistic Leg Extension.

Ah... that makes sense. Thanks.