Has race ever been made into an issue for you?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Given that the bulk of what people in the US associate with the martial arts is Asian, and that the bulk of people in the US are decidedly not Asian, the only time I have ever heard about race coming up was as an extention of the racial issues that the US has for a very long time before eastern martial arts came to these shores.

My younger son has a Korean friend who said, "Korean Kumdo? You can't have a black belt in that. You're not Korean."

My son said that GM Kim, who is actually from Korea (as opposed to my son's friend who was born here) seemed to think differently. That was the end of the discussion and the two of them went on to play their Halo game or whatever they were doing. This friend of his does not practice any martial art, Korean or otherwise, and the subject has never come up again.

Daniel

 

[tellner]

I'd suggest a look at the book <i>Men of Steel Discipline</i>. It's a history of Black practitioners in the early days of American Karate. Things have improved. They have improved a lot. It's useful to look back a few decades and see where we started and how we got to where we are.

 

[Balrog]

Only once. I had a somewhat militant black lady bring her son in for an intro lesson. She very aggressively asked me what her boy would learn from a lily-white guy like me.

I told her that some of the things he would learn would be courtesy, respect and self-control. I also told her that he would learn that the only color that was important was the color of the belt around the waist.

She lasted about three months. Her son was enjoying it and making progress, but she wanted him to be learning how to be a bad-***. She pulled him out; I have no idea if she started him in a different school somewhere.

 

[Dave Leverich]

I'd suggest a look at the book Men of Steel Discipline. It's a history of Black practitioners in the early days of American Karate. Things have improved. They have improved a lot. It's useful to look back a few decades and see where we started and how we got to where we are.

That'd be an interesting read. Two of my original line were black men who brought MDK to the states (Sacramento), I'd be interested to read that and see what their experiences were in the late 70's.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I'd suggest a look at the book <i>Men of Steel Discipline</i>. It's a history of Black practitioners in the early days of American Karate. Things have improved. They have improved a lot. It's useful to look back a few decades and see where we started and how we got to where we are.

I've received quite a bit of it,and all of it well-intentioned.When I first let a Japanese friend of my Okinawan cousin know that I train in karate,he told me that I should "stick to boxing because that's yours." A number of friends would gush that I rose so rapidly in rank and skill because I'm "such a good ATHLETE! You could go PRO!" I remember a well-known Supreme Grandmaster of a Korean martial art I was studying in the late 80's giving orders to his son that I should spar higher ranking bigger guys and not be given so many compliments on my performance because he didn't want the other students to like me more.I kept fighting bigger taller stronger more experienced guys until they found guys (all black belts) who could reliably beat me--a yellow belt at the time in their art--and when I started turning the tables on them inside of a month? I was forbidden to spar and told to work on my forms and rolls only.

I got so good at the forms and rolls that Eric--son of the SGM and the best forms competitor I had seen up to that point in my life--started giving me pointers until his older brother Henry relayed to him the wishes of their father.

Don't get me started on the tournament calls either,lololol.

But overall my martial arts journey has been astoundingly rewarding and I wouldn't change it for a thing.

 

[punisher73]

I have recently taken my first Asian student. Nothing special about that in and of itself, really but he annd I decided to practice at the park a few days ago in sweats instead of gi. During our kata training we had four people come up to us to ask questions and all of them made the assumption that my friend was the instructor. Now this is in spite of the fact that I was doing the kata along with him with the resultant skill gap between us readily apparent, stopping periodicaly to correct his movements, and overall engaging him in every way as the teacher in the teacher/student relationship. I guess since I'm a white guy I must be the one learning karate from the Asian guy.

We both found it darkly funny, although we did note that the two people that approached us when we were sparring didn't make that same error. So either I live in a town full of closet racists or I spar a hell of a lot better than I do kata

Thats the closest I think I've ever come to real racism in the martial arts world, at least that directly impacted me. I wouldn't tolerate that crap in my school, or in reference to my students, for a second.

Mark

That is more of a prejudice. People don't know and so they ASSUME certain things, they "pre-judge" the situation. Racism would imply that there was a mistreatment because of race.

Unfortunately, racism/stupidity knows no color boundaries, nor does it hold only to a certain group/activity/profession. Some idiots will bring their stupidity to whatever they do.

As a side note, it used to crack me up when I worked in the jail, I would come across racist people both black and white and talk about how they couldn't be roomed with someone from another race blah, blah, blah. But, then I would always see them playing cards all the time together. I asked one of them one time why. It was "okay" to place with different races while you were in jail, but only there to pass the time. Apparantly, jail was a kind of racist neutral zone. Amazing how stupid they could be that they couldn't figure out that if they could become friends there in that setting why they couldn't extend that to the rest of their lives/places as well.

 

[Big Don]

Yes. As a politically conservative, heterosexual, White Male American, I am obviously the cause of every problem up to and including the Fall of Man.

 

[Big Don]

I'm Filipino, and have taken a stab at the FMA's as a way to integrate it into my fighting game (the footwork and speed can make you very agile) and to explore my own culture.

You are Filipino? I thought you looked like this:

 

[Big Don]

Race? No, I'm a fighter, not a runner...

 

[David43515]

I`ve been on the recieving end of a few racist comments, but never in a martial arts setting. Most people have assumed if I was willing to get sore and sweaty with them I was okay.

 

[Master Dan]

How about only Koreans can teach Taekwondo? or Korean maters telling other non Korean master's students they should come to them to have pride in their heritage and not train with the non Korean instructor?

Over the last two decades I cannot tell you the number of times I have taken Korean children of retired Korean TKD masters who's kids are too lazy or spoiled to learn and after several years of hard work and getting many over being fat, lazy or even learning disabilities they now say well they are pretty good its time to send them to a real TKD instructor?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

No.

But then again I am from Belgium, so any martial art originating here would probably involve distracting people with waffles and chocolate, and then making them drink 'real' beer which will knock them out after a couple of glasses.

Damn I am from Belgium as well and I somehow lost my ability to Wafflefu after Coming to the States... maybe I need to get a cultural refresher course lol

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

You know I have to say I am actually a little embarassed to say I have never really thought about it till now, but the people I have learned from in the martial arts.....

Hispanic-Kenpo
Black-kickboxing/boxing
Filipino-Muay thai
Brazilian-Jiu Jitsu

Gee I must be racist, apparantly I don't like to train under other white people...
but then again if the intent isnt there... hrmmmm:shrug:

 

[ATACX GYM]

How about only Koreans can teach Taekwondo? or Korean maters telling other non Korean master's students they should come to them to have pride in their heritage and not train with the non Korean instructor?

Over the last two decades I cannot tell you the number of times I have taken Korean children of retired Korean TKD masters who's kids are too lazy or spoiled to learn and after several years of hard work and getting many over being fat, lazy or even learning disabilities they now say well they are pretty good its time to send them to a real TKD instructor?

OMG you just walked me down a LOT of static...Memory Lane style.As a Black TKD 5th dan,I have had MUCHO static slung my way for NOT being Korean.I mean...it's EXTRA BAD for Black folks,lol.What makes it worse is that I have half-Korean cousins and they tell me HORROR STORIES about how they were treated in Seoul before they came here.One of my sisters is Korean,and one of my daughters is 1/4 Korean.I remember for years that nobody would spar me because I was good and nobody would risk their reputation as a Master against me because they might lose to--well--the word translates as "ancient farm equipment" and it's an extremely derogatory reference to the slave history of Black people in the U.S.A.So nobody Korean gave me my dan,no Korean master came to my promotions,and I wasn't even accepted--TWICE--in tourneys run by Koreans as 3rd dan (back when I was a 3rd) because nobody believed that I actually received that rank.Right next to me? 4 White 3rd dans had NO PROBLEM being accepted,and if it wasn't for a White 5th dan vouching for me (thanks Scott) I wouldn't've even been able to PARTICIPATE AT ALL.

I was not amused.

2 years ago I finally sparred a Korean Master who was a high rank,dazzlingly skilled former South Korean national champion.Just before I stepped onto the mat with him,I learned that the only reason I was being allowed to spar with this man was because I was to be sharply and adroitly "punished" for "daring" to claim to hold rank that belongs only to "true Koreans" and not "shameful slaves".This knowledge from my ubiquitous secret informers was confirmed by the very first combination kick that was thrown by this skilled Korean,who just missed taking my head off with 2 kicks thrown in a 6 kick lightning combo which I barely managed to evade.Okay,he was coming for blood.These were full powered kicks that would break bones,not the "usual fare" hard kicks in sparring.

I proceeded to whoop his azz.

Punches,knees,elbows,slams,sweeps,traps,Kenpo hands,boxing,Judo and wrestling slams and throws,and...sweetest of all...I KO'd him with a full powered head kick that cracked against his skull from his left ear along his jawline to his chin.While standing over his crumpled,inert form I turned and faced the suddenly stone faced half circle of Korean Masters,bowed perfunctorily,and left.

Haven't heard or word nor seen hide nor hair of them since.

Interestingly,my very traditional Korean Hapkido Grandmaster...Grandmaster Chu...was TICKLED TO DEATH when he found out (I didn't tell him he somehow knew via the Korean grapevine) what happened,and he couldn't stop telling me how proud he was of me.I received my black from him THAT DAY,even though I hadn't learned all the forms of his unique blend of hapkido taekwondo hung gar kuk sool won and hwarangdo yet.However...even HE never came to my TKD black belt promotions.I didn't want to put him in some awkward position by asking him to come when I noted he didn't seem overly enthused at the prospect.

 

[shihansmurf]

That is more of a prejudice. People don't know and so they ASSUME certain things, they "pre-judge" the situation. Racism would imply that there was a mistreatment because of race.

Unfortunately, racism/stupidity knows no color boundaries, nor does it hold only to a certain group/activity/profession. Some idiots will bring their stupidity to whatever they do.

As a side note, it used to crack me up when I worked in the jail, I would come across racist people both black and white and talk about how they couldn't be roomed with someone from another race blah, blah, blah. But, then I would always see them playing cards all the time together. I asked one of them one time why. It was "okay" to place with different races while you were in jail, but only there to pass the time. Apparantly, jail was a kind of racist neutral zone. Amazing how stupid they could be that they couldn't figure out that if they could become friends there in that setting why they couldn't extend that to the rest of their lives/places as well.

While you're completely correct in your point, I remain convinced it was because I was whuppin his butt :ultracool

Mark

P.S. Good tread necro, ATACX GYM!

 

[Master Dan]

OMG you just walked me down a LOT of static...Memory Lane style.As a Black TKD 5th dan,I have had MUCHO static slung my way for NOT being Korean.I mean...it's EXTRA BAD for Black folks,lol.What makes it worse is that I have half-Korean cousins and they tell me HORROR STORIES about how they were treated in Seoul before they came here.One of my sisters is Korean,and one of my daughters is 1/4 Korean.I remember for years that nobody would spar me because I was good and nobody would risk their reputation as a Master against me because they might lose to--well--the word translates as "ancient farm equipment" and it's an extremely derogatory reference to the slave history of Black people in the U.S.A.So nobody Korean gave me my dan,no Korean master came to my promotions,and I wasn't even accepted--TWICE--in tourneys run by Koreans as 3rd dan (back when I was a 3rd) because nobody believed that I actually received that rank.Right next to me? 4 White 3rd dans had NO PROBLEM being accepted,and if it wasn't for a White 5th dan vouching for me (thanks Scott) I wouldn't've even been able to PARTICIPATE AT ALL.


I was not amused.

2 years ago I finally sparred a Korean Master who was a high rank,dazzlingly skilled former South Korean national champion.Just before I stepped onto the mat with him,I learned that the only reason I was being allowed to spar with this man was because I was to be sharply and adroitly "punished" for "daring" to claim to hold rank that belongs only to "true Koreans" and not "shameful slaves".This knowledge from my ubiquitous secret informers was confirmed by the very first combination kick that was thrown by this skilled Korean,who just missed taking my head off with 2 kicks thrown in a 6 kick lightning combo which I barely managed to evade.Okay,he was coming for blood.These were full powered kicks that would break bones,not the "usual fare" hard kicks in sparring.

I proceeded to whoop his azz.

Punches,knees,elbows,slams,sweeps,traps,Kenpo hands,boxing,Judo and wrestling slams and throws,and...sweetest of all...I KO'd him with a full powered head kick that cracked against his skull from his left ear along his jawline to his chin.While standing over his crumpled,inert form I turned and faced the suddenly stone faced half circle of Korean Masters,bowed perfunctorily,and left.

Haven't heard or word nor seen hide nor hair of them since.

Interestingly,my very traditional Korean Hapkido Grandmaster...Grandmaster Chu...was TICKLED TO DEATH when he found out (I didn't tell him he somehow knew via the Korean grapevine) what happened,and he couldn't stop telling me how proud he was of me.I received my black from him THAT DAY,even though I hadn't learned all the forms of his unique blend of hapkido taekwondo hung gar kuk sool won and hwarangdo yet.However...even HE never came to my TKD black belt promotions.I didn't want to put him in some awkward position by asking him to come when I noted he didn't seem overly enthused at the prospect.

By the way my wife is black and the only US referee to the Olympics in China was black from our NW assocaition. I could share some good stories on PM about the Brothers in TKD. Back in the day early 70's in our Dojang a whole boat load of Koreans came in off a freighter to visit thinking they would kick our butts and we sent them bruized and tired home, to be fair they were out of shape from being on the water so long.

Happy to here from you

 

[Master Dan]

Damn good forum post 1400 views and 56 posts first day thats what MA talk is all about. Not a bunch of bickering about details but at the root of it Asians and non Asians?

Senior Master World Champion friend stated you know every art has been taken in by the non host country and made its own and improved. We have four decades of experience and no body can take that away on paper or claim a racial advantage over that.

It gets tiresome being descriminated against both in stature and financially? Its like you have a black friend your friends alone but roll up to the group you ain't family?

 

[clfsean]

Try getting a lion dance gig for Chinese New Year & there's not a single Chinese member of the team or school, except for my sifu's wife & kids who don't practice.

 

[punisher73]

While you're completely correct in your point, I remain convinced it was because I was whuppin his butt :ultracool

Mark

You are probably quite correct on that point. :asian:

I just meant that most people are ignorant of the martial arts if they don't study themselves, so due to stereotypes would assume that the asian person was the teacher just seeing the interaction of kata and not knowing what was really being done.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Try getting a lion dance gig for Chinese New Year & there's not a single Chinese member of the team or school, except for my sifu's wife & kids who don't practice.

What's CLF?