Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

[JowGaWolf]

You can do sweep on the supporting leg in MMA. You can also kick into the knee

I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking. To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.

The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about. The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can do sweep on the supporting leg in MMA. You can also kick into the knee

I've only seen front sweeps in mma. in general not many MMA fighters actually know how to sweep. In general not many MMA fighters actually use a high kick to the head.

 

[Acronym]

I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking. To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.

The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about. The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.

It's perfectly legal.

What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's perfectly legal.

What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora

But it doesn't specify what type of kicks to the knee. There's more than one type of kick that can be done to the knee.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It's perfectly legal.

What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora

I'm not seeing any official information/source listed there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not seeing any official information/source listed there.

The rules that I was able to find were very general. The UFC has a rule about unsportsman like conduct, which could be anything.

There's rules against groin kicks but not against tiger clawing the groin. So is diger clawing the groin illegal or unsportsmanlike.

If someone does a high kick and I side kick into their standing leg, depending on how that standing leg's knee is turned I can easily tear up the ligaments in that knee causing someone's career to end. So is that illegal or unsportsman like? Since kicks to the knees are allowed in some MMA venues. Some MMA organizations ban knee kicks all together.

What I want to know specifically is, Do the rules allow the defender to strike the knee of a standing leg of a kicker. So if someone is standing one leg, can I just start doing side kicks into the knee.
So instead of kicking the groin. Can I target the knee of the standing leg. Or would that be unsportsman like in their books?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Or is it only unsportsman like if my opponent suffers a knee injury that ends is career. Or is it fair game if it doesn't cause injury.?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The rules that I was able to find were very general. The UFC has a rule about unsportsman like conduct, which could be anything.

There's rules against groin kicks but not against tiger clawing the groin. So is diger clawing the groin illegal or unsportsmanlike.

If someone does a high kick and I side kick into their standing leg, depending on how that standing leg's knee is turned I can easily tear up the ligaments in that knee causing someone's career to end. So is that illegal or unsportsman like? Since kicks to the knees are allowed in some MMA venues. Some MMA organizations ban knee kicks all together.

What I want to know specifically is, Do the rules allow the defender to strike the knee of a standing leg of a kicker. So if someone is standing one leg, can I just start doing side kicks into the knee.
So instead of kicking the groin. Can I target the knee of the standing leg. Or would that be unsportsman like in their books?

From what I can tell there's no rule against it, although people were wanting a rule against it at one point due to jon jones. I would assume that unless there's a specific clause about it, that it's allowed, although like you said who decides what's considered unsportsmanlike? @Tez3 might be able to give us a more exact answer to this..

 

[Acronym]

You are allowed to do any number of spoiler techniques.

Here's Weidman doing one which Broke silvas leg. Weidman had specifically prepared for it

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The problem isn't not knowing BJJ. The guy literally won a BJJ match without doing any BJJ. All he used was a wrist lock. match over.

Just so you know, the winner was using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.

I don't personally use it in sparring because it's kind of a tricky move to pull off and I haven't practiced it enough. (It's also kind of nasty because it hits quickly in actual application and doesn't give much time for the recipient to tap out. My wrists are kind of messed up with arthritis and bone spurs and I try to avoid using techniques in sparring that I don't want my sparring partners to turn around and do back to me.)

I do occasionally go for other stand-up wrist locks in sparring (and have had them used against me). The vast majority of the time they don't "work" in the sense of producing a tap/break or a throw. However the threat of the wrist getting locked can force the opponent to move and thereby give up a more advantageous position.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just so you know, the winner was using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.

I've seen similar wrist locks in Chin Na. Where you lock the wrist using the body . If I can find my Chin Na book, I'll take a scan of it and show you the picture of it. The concept is always the same regardless of the system. Bend the joint in a way that it naturally doesn't bend.

But I'll post that picture once I find my book.

 

[Acronym]

Just so you know, the winner was using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.

Is it in Aikido?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just so you know, the winner was using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.

I don't personally use it in sparring because it's kind of a tricky move to pull off and I haven't practiced it enough. (It's also kind of nasty because it hits quickly in actual application and doesn't give much time for the recipient to tap out. My wrists are kind of messed up with arthritis and bone spurs and I try to avoid using techniques in sparring that I don't want my sparring partners to turn around and do back to me.)

I do occasionally go for other stand-up wrist locks in sparring (and have had them used against me). The vast majority of the time they don't "work" in the sense of producing a tap/break or a throw. However the threat of the wrist getting locked can force the opponent to move and thereby give up a more advantageous position.

If the person is aware of the danger of a joint being locked then that person would move in a way that makes it more difficult. Small joint locks are easier to pull off if you can distract the person with something else while you are initiating the lock.

If a person has experienced the lock before then they will recognize the feel of the other person's hand positioning for the lock and that makes it harder as well. In applications these locks should hit quickly, there shouldn't be time for them to do much of anything but feel the pain and stop fighting. There's no gradual onset of pain that you can feel creeping up unless you are doing a demo.

It's even worse when you get someone who thinks they can fight their way out of it, because once you get it to the lock in position, you'll do all you can to prevent them from breaking their own joints.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking. To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.

The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about. The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.

Just so you know, that counter is totally legal under standard MMA rules.

I think the issue with head kicks today is that the standing leg can't be targeted in a lot of martial arts sports as defined by the rules
1. You can't target the groin
2. You can't do a back sweep on the standing leg
3. You can't kick into the knee of a standing leg

The rules in martial arts sports pretty much protect the front leg from sweeps, with the exception of the front sweep. Because of the way the rules are set up, people have an inaccurate perception of the high kick.

Accidental kicks to the groin when doing a side kick is considered to be "an accident" and against the rule in martial arts sports,

But in real life application. That's exactly what you want to do and those kicks to the groin are actually good martial arts; the way it should be without the rule set.

I have sparred at a school where they allowed groin kicks. It didn't eliminate high kicks, but it did make you a lot more aware of setting them up carefully.

Most martial arts system will also warn about the risks of doing high kicks as well.

Here's the reality about kicks. When you do them you are stuck standing on one leg. Ways to exploit that
1. Cover your head quickly move forward towards your opponent's center. This removes your head from the end of the kick, that's where the danger is. The forward force should be strong enough to cause the standing leg to lose the root, when your body collides.

2. When someone kicks high drop and sweep the standing leg or kick the standing leg. If it's a sport then a circular strike can be used. If it's in self-defense then kick into the knee joint.

3. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees forward into the kick while covered. This attacks the weak part of the kick.

4. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees foward in the same direction of the kick. This is where the kick will not reach you.

5. When a high kick is circular cover with one hand and punch with the other. The target should either be the face or the body, depending on how far they lean back to do the high kick. Landing a solid punch will disrupt the power of the kick.

6. If the kick lands but gets caught on your body, then seize the kicking leg and attack the standing leg.

I've tried these against 2 TKD practitioners, one who used to train in the same school that I did and another from a different school. The only real requirement is that one has to get used to moving forward aggressively and always be on the look out for kicks. These tactics work best with a mirrored stance if your opponent likes to kick with their rear leg.

The thing about high kicks is that they are high risk/ high reward. In order to make the reward worth the risk in contexts where counters like the ones you mentioned are allowed, the kicker needs to have a few skills in place:

• They need to know how to set up the kick in such a way that their opponent has minimal opportunity to execute the counter. Timing, position, relative movement of the combatants, and more all contribute to this.
• They need to know how to mitigate the risks if they do get countered. If they get swept, they need to know how to fall safely and defend themselves on the ground. If they get counter punched, they need to know how to cover their head and move offline while kicking.
• They need their high kicks to be fast and deceptive enough to negate the disadvantage which comes from a kick which travels further and therefore allows more reaction time.
• They need their high kicks to be powerful enough so that the potential reward (a one-shot knockout) is worth the added risks.

I'm not personally a huge fan of high kicks, but I have seen a number of fighters show that they can absolutely make the rewards worth the risk. (Generally these are pro-level fighters. I wouldn't recommend most casual hobbyists throw high kicks in a real fight.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is it in Aikido?

I haven't seen that particular setup in Aikido, but I'm not an Aikido practitioner and don't know everything in the art. Perhaps one of the Aikidoka on the board can let us know.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If the person is aware of the danger of a joint being locked then that person would move in a way that makes it more difficult. Small joint locks are easier to pull off if you can distract the person with something else while you are initiating the lock.

Exactly. Wristlock finishes aren't the most common submission in BJJ, but they do happen because competitors will get so caught up in defending a choke or armlock or throw that they forget to notice their wrist is in danger.

If a person has experienced the lock before then they will recognize the feel of the other person's hand positioning for the lock and that makes it harder as well.

Yep. However sometimes you can use their reaction as they reposition to avoid the wrist lock to improve your own position.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have sparred at a school where they allowed groin kicks. It didn't eliminate high kicks, but it did make you a lot more aware of setting them up carefully.

I knew it wouldn't eliminate the head kicks but it changes how freely one does the the high kicks especially if someone is targeting the groin or the standing leg.

I see this happen often with TKD fighters who fight against people who look for the high kick. The first round the TKD person does his high kick and the majority of those high kicks result in being swept. It takes about 5 or 6 sweeps before the TKD person starts backing out. If you are getting punished because you are kicking high, then you are less willing to kick high. If you get kicked in the groin 5 or 6 times when you kick high, then how likely are you going to kick high a 7th time.?

 

[JowGaWolf]

The thing about high kicks is that they are high risk/ high reward. In order to make the reward worth the risk in contexts where counters like the ones you mentioned are allowed, the kicker needs to have a few skills in place:

• They need to know how to set up the kick in such a way that their opponent has minimal opportunity to execute the counter. Timing, position, relative movement of the combatants, and more all contribute to this.
• They need to know how to mitigate the risks if they do get countered. If they get swept, they need to know how to fall safely and defend themselves on the ground. If they get counter punched, they need to know how to cover their head and move offline while kicking.
• They need their high kicks to be fast and deceptive enough to negate the disadvantage which comes from a kick which travels further and therefore allows more reaction time.
• They need their high kicks to be powerful enough so that the potential reward (a one-shot knockout) is worth the added risks.

I'm not personally a huge fan of high kicks, but I have seen a number of fighters show that they can absolutely make the rewards worth the risk. (Generally these are pro-level fighters. I wouldn't recommend most casual hobbyists throw high kicks in a real fight.)

I agree 100%. The person who counters high kicks and exploits them also needs a skill set of their own to deal with the high kicks. I still cringe when I see people trying to back out of the range of kicks. Or when they try to move side ways to avoid kicks. The defender doesn't understand kicks and the mechanics of kicks, then you can just kick them all day.

Sort of like when boxer's try to keep their distance in the Boxer vs kick boxer videos. They don't realize that they keep putting their legs within that kicks power zone. Everything from stances direction of movement will play a role in countering a kick.

It took me 3 or 4 continuous moves just set my brother up with this one. I can't set him up by waiting for a kick and then responding. There no way I can do this type of sweep from a stand still. It would be nice if I was that quick, but he would have read my intent and I would have been kicked with something else. If a person doesn't understand the motion of the kick or how the body shifts in order to kick, then there's no way he /she will be able to exploit a high kick. They would be better off rushing the kicker and hope that, the kicker doesn't like front kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yep. However sometimes you can use their reaction as they reposition to avoid the wrist lock to improve your own position.

One thing I want to learn is how to go into one Wrist lock and flow into another. I think I would have better success if I can use my opponent's escape to trap them into another wrist lock.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I knew it wouldn't eliminate the head kicks but it changes how freely one does the the high kicks especially if someone is targeting the groin or the standing leg.

I see this happen often with TKD fighters who fight against people who look for the high kick. The first round the TKD person does his high kick and the majority of those high kicks result in being swept. It takes about 5 or 6 sweeps before the TKD person starts backing out. If you are getting punished because you are kicking high, then you are less willing to kick high. If you get kicked in the groin 5 or 6 times when you kick high, then how likely are you going to kick high a 7th time.?

Yeah, if someone only trains and spars in a ruleset where there are no negative consequences for a high kick, then they will lack the knowledge of how to set them up safely in a different context.

In general not many MMA fighters actually use a high kick to the head.

They've gotten a lot more popular as fighters have figured out how to use them correctly.

You'll notice that almost all of these knockouts happened when the fighter being kicked either didn't see the kick coming, wasn't in a position to defend against it, or was fooled into thinking the kick was coming to a different target.

I've only seen front sweeps in mma. in general not many MMA fighters actually know how to sweep

Here are a few ...

It's hard to find videos which focus on just sweeps as separate from throws, but this one has some really nice sweeps mixed in with the throws and slams: