Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

[JowGaWolf]

Can you explain to me how someone who isn't even capable of executing head kicks has any say on the validity of them?

I don't know anyone personally in here who at one point of their life couldn't kick to the head. For me I used to train karate so for many years high kicks were a thing to strive for. It wasn't until I took Kung Fu, that my perspective changed on that. My first kung fu class was in my early 20's and that's when I started learning how to exploit high kicks. It wasn't until my late 20's that I really started to restrict high kicks. I would try to maintain the flexibility but that's about it.

A lot of people here have taken other martial arts as well. Some of us are at an age where the flexibility isn't what it used to be. So they may not be able to kick high now, but have had experience in doing so.

Others may have learned through example or through their teaching about the risk of kicking too high. Others may have learned through watching fights with people kicking high.

I've seen enough TKD fights to expect that if they are kicking high that one of them will fall while trying to kick. I did a search on TKD fights. This was the second video that I picked.

This is the fourth video

So even if a person has never kicked high before, one can analyze videos of high kicks and arrive to a theory about the risks one opens themselves up to when kicking high.

If you like kick high, then kick away until your happy. No one is saying to hate kicking high.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, this must mean your high kicks don't work statement was meant to me qualified in some sense. Or am I missing something?

I don't think he ever said they don't work - just that they have problems.

 

[Acronym]

I don't know anyone personally in here who at one point of their life couldn't kick to the head. For me I used to train karate so for many years high kicks were a thing to strive for. It wasn't until I took Kung Fu, that my perspective changed on that. My first kung fu class was in my early 20's and that's when I started learning how to exploit high kicks. It wasn't until my late 20's that I really started to restrict high kicks. I would try to maintain the flexibility but that's about it.

A lot of people here have taken other martial arts as well. Some of us are at an age where the flexibility isn't what it used to be. So they may not be able to kick high now, but have had experience in doing so.

Others may have learned through example or through their teaching about the risk of kicking too high. Others may have learned through watching fights with people kicking high.

I've seen enough TKD fights to expect that if they are kicking high that one of them will fall while trying to kick. I did a search on TKD fights. This was the second video that I picked.

This is the fourth video

So even if a person has never kicked high before, one can analyze videos of high kicks and arrive to a theory about the risks one opens themselves up to when kicking high.

If you like kick high, then kick away until your happy. No one is saying to hate kicking high.

I was talking about you now. Your selective search does not impress me.

Here is a taekwondo guy beating up a Kyokushin-kai.

 

[Acronym]

I don't think he ever said they don't work - just that they have problems.

That's an outdated pre WW2 sentiment. Most martial arts systems incorporate head kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was talking about you now. Your selective search does not impress me.

Here is a taekwondo guy beating up a Kyokushin-kai.

Here is what I see in that video.

1. The video is a clip of successful kicks, it's not the entire fight as it played out. It's a highlight of successful kicks so I'm going base my comments on that.

2. I saw one person who knew how to kick the head and another person who didn't know how to exploit the kick. Due to the lack of that knowledge, the TKD saw an opportunity to kick the head and went for it, which is what I've said already Post #23 and Post #76 and not this one.

3. Based on the clip that were shown, I didn't see any attempts to attack the standing leg. So based on that, I would say that the other fighter didn't know how to exploit high kicks.

4. @:023 the TKD guy exploits his opponents high kick, and sweeps the standing leg which I've stated before.

5. The TKD's outskilled his opponent and as a result he was able to use those high kicks more freely

6. The TKD's opponent had horrible kick defense and only choose to kick the calf or shin of his opponent. No front kicks, no side kicks,

It's hard to really say for certain because what you showed were clips of the fight and not the entire fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's an outdated pre WW2 sentiment. Most martial arts systems incorporate head kicks.

Most martial arts system will also warn about the risks of doing high kicks as well.

Here's the reality about kicks. When you do them you are stuck standing on one leg. Ways to exploit that
1. Cover your head quickly move forward towards your opponent's center. This removes your head from the end of the kick, that's where the danger is. The forward force should be strong enough to cause the standing leg to lose the root, when your body collides.

2. When someone kicks high drop and sweep the standing leg or kick the standing leg. If it's a sport then a circular strike can be used. If it's in self-defense then kick into the knee joint.

3. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees forward into the kick while covered. This attacks the weak part of the kick.

4. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees foward in the same direction of the kick. This is where the kick will not reach you.

5. When a high kick is circular cover with one hand and punch with the other. The target should either be the face or the body, depending on how far they lean back to do the high kick. Landing a solid punch will disrupt the power of the kick.

6. If the kick lands but gets caught on your body, then seize the kicking leg and attack the standing leg.

I've tried these against 2 TKD practitioners, one who used to train in the same school that I did and another from a different school. The only real requirement is that one has to get used to moving forward aggressively and always be on the look out for kicks. These tactics work best with a mirrored stance if your opponent likes to kick with their rear leg.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Same stuff I've been saying is the same stuff this TKD guy say about countering a kick to the head.
Two different systems coming to the same conclusion.

Similar principle as I showed here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Another system coming to the same conclusion. Move foward 45 degree angle.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I don't think he ever said they don't work - just that they have problems.

I think Bill Wallace said it best: "The problem with kicking is that you are standing on one foot".

 

[paitingman]

Most martial arts system will also warn about the risks of doing high kicks as well.

Here's the reality about kicks. When you do them you are stuck standing on one leg. Ways to exploit that
1. Cover your head quickly move forward towards your opponent's center. This removes your head from the end of the kick, that's where the danger is. The forward force should be strong enough to cause the standing leg to lose the root, when your body collides.

2. When someone kicks high drop and sweep the standing leg or kick the standing leg. If it's a sport then a circular strike can be used. If it's in self-defense then kick into the knee joint.

3. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees forward into the kick while covered. This attacks the weak part of the kick.

4. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees foward in the same direction of the kick. This is where the kick will not reach you.

5. When a high kick is circular cover with one hand and punch with the other. The target should either be the face or the body, depending on how far they lean back to do the high kick. Landing a solid punch will disrupt the power of the kick.

6. If the kick lands but gets caught on your body, then seize the kicking leg and attack the standing leg.

I've tried these against 2 TKD practitioners, one who used to train in the same school that I did and another from a different school. The only real requirement is that one has to get used to moving forward aggressively and always be on the look out for kicks. These tactics work best with a mirrored stance if your opponent likes to kick with their rear leg.

There is a serious lack of this kind of thinking in many TKD schools. If not lead by your teacher, you need to let your mind wander and question.

It should really go without saying, but it is the job of the TKD practitioner to understand the six maneuvers you brought up and much more.
The kicker should fully understand as many of the risks of and counters to the kicks they throw as they can.

As a lifelong TKD man, I LOVE when people try to kick me lol. I don't care what striking system you practice; once you lift a foot off the floor, you are in my world. It is very rare and exciting when I meet someone who understands the dangers of being on one leg better than I do haha. Getting swept off my feet [usually] only excites me to learn what the heck just happened.

 

[Acronym]

I think Bill Wallace said it best: "The problem with kicking is that you are standing on one foot".

There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session

 

[Acronym]

There is a serious lack of this kind of thinking in many TKD schools. If not lead by your teacher, you need to let your mind wander and question.

It should really go without saying, but it is the job of the TKD practitioner to understand the six maneuvers you brought up and much more.
The kicker should fully understand as many of the risks of and counters to the kicks they throw as they can.

As a lifelong TKD man, I LOVE when people try to kick me lol. I don't care what striking system you practice; once you lift a foot off the floor, you are in my world. It is very rare and exciting when I meet someone who understands the dangers of being on one leg better than I do haha. Getting swept off my feet [usually] only excites me to learn what the heck just happened.

Because they are play patty cake, not because high kicking doesn't work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I am certain of that since I am well read on the subject and I grew up with Hapkido. I don't need to visit schools in order to qualify that statement.

I can't speak for the emphasis however, but your claim that spin kicks are rare in the US is very questionable.

This is from a random student who trained under a 9th Dan:

"We didn't do much striking practice in HKD proper aside from High/Low wheel kicks"

So spin kicks do play a large part in Hapkido as I stated.

You might want to look back at my post. I made no claim that they were rare in the US, just that they were rare at a few schools I was familliar with years ago. As for your certainty................

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's an outdated pre WW2 sentiment. Most martial arts systems incorporate head kicks.

Which is not a refutation of the statement that they have problems. As someone else mentioned, everything you do opens something else up. Try again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session

So, you disagree with Bill Wallace?

 

[Dirty Dog]

There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session

How do they do that when knocked out?
I'm not sure you understand this stuff as well as you think you do...

 

[JowGaWolf]

As a lifelong TKD man, I LOVE when people try to kick me lol. I don't care what striking system you practice; once you lift a foot off the floor, you are in my world.

lol what's the saying. Don't try to outbox a boxer. Well this one is don't try to out kick a kicker for me. Friendly sparring, I'll eat a few kicks, at least at that point I hope my sparring partner is kind lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session

so if you and I were sparring on a hard floor, you would be ok with me sweeping your standing leg or kicking your standing leg with full force?

 

[JowGaWolf]

1924 Savate says

 

[Acronym]

so if you and I were sparring on a hard floor, you would be ok with me sweeping your standing leg or kicking your standing leg with full force?

Have you ever heard of a thing called TIMING? I would high kick when there's an opening.