handguns for self defense

[CB Jones]

@oftheherd1,

If you feel comfortable carrying a .25 that is fine.

I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest that caliber to someone who is looking to get a CCW when we know there is much better guns out there for that purpose.

 

[hoshin1600]

Then is a larger caliber really such a big advantage, if you can't hit vital areas?

cant remember the specifics but recently there was a shooting where the victim was shot in the shoulder, the fragmentation bounced all inside the chest cavity puncturing lungs and his heart.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@oftheherd1,

If you feel comfortable carrying a .25 that is fine.

I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest that caliber to someone who is looking to get a CCW when we know there is much better guns out there for that purpose.

I think the way some of us look at it is a continuum. A 22 is probably better than a punch (well, better than my punch, anyway), as far as capacity to put someone down with a hit to the body (variously better and worse on the bony head, depending whether it hits bone or not). A .380 is probably better than a .22. A .45 is probably better than a .380.

So, I agree that a .22 or .25 is not a great choice. I do think it's better, in the moment it's needed, than not having one, so long as the person who chose it was aware of its limitations.

 

[Charlemagne]

I started off with a CZ P-01 for CCW, before after selling it and trying a few different options. About a year and a half ago, I treated myself to another CZ P-01, this time with the Defensive Carry package from Cajun Gun Works, and some upgraded sights.

Never should have sold the first one, but I guess you live and learn.​

 

[CB Jones]

So, I agree that a .22 or .25 is not a great choice. I do think it's better, in the moment it's needed, than not having one, so long as the person who chose it was aware of its limitations.

Absolutely it's better than nothing.

But chance favors the prepared mind, so in preparation I'm not choosing the "better than nothing" weapon.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Absolutely it's better than nothing.

But chance favors the prepared mind, so in preparation I'm not choosing the "better than nothing" weapon.

Agreed. If I'm carrying, I'm carrying more than a .22 or .25, unless nothing else is available in the situation. I view the small calibers like a kubotan - sometimes it's just best the tool I can manage to take with me. If it's not, I haven't much use for it.

 

[Charlemagne]

Agreed. If I'm carrying, I'm carrying more than a .22 or .25, unless nothing else is available in the situation. I view the small calibers like a kubotan - sometimes it's just best the tool I can manage to take with me. If it's not, I haven't much use for it.

I'd have to agree with that as well. With good shot placement smaller calibers can and will end the fight quickly. However, in a stressful situation and with a moving target (the other guy gets a vote) a critical hit with a small caliber is not guaranteed to end the fight immediately. The attacker might bleed out an hour later, but if he had time to kill you or your loved one before doing so, what was the point? To me, a 9mm and up, with the correct round choice, is the way to go.

The same thing is true for HD guns such as a shotgun. Sure, someone might bleed out from birdshot at close range, but there are also stories of guys getting shot in the face with and living. Shooting the home invader with #1 buckshot and up (my personal preference being OOBuck) has a far better chance of ending things NOW. And, if you are in a situation where you have to use your firearm for defensive purposes (God forbid), that is the point.

Anyone who is thinking of CCW should get Massad Ayoob's books and spend a good amount of time reading them. This is the one I would start with:

https://smile.amazon.com/Gun-Digest...8&qid=1502635580&sr=8-4&keywords=Massad+Ayoob

 

[Buka]

Each to his own, you carry what you want, I'll carry what I want.

I carried everywhere, on duty and off, in court, in churches, in schools, at the beach in a bathing suit, in bars, hospitals, on air planes, in government buildings, everywhere, for years. All legally, mind you.

But I still hate guns. Hate gun lovers, gun haters, the NRA, the anti-NRA folks, I even hate threads about guns. I hate everything and everybody that has to do with guns.

Yet....I still carry all the time. Ain't easy being an old hypocrite. Gets confusing sometimes.

 

[Runs With Fire]

I love my guns. The only thing that relaxes me like burning up a brick of 22 is a calm day fishing.

 

[oftheherd1]

@oftheherd1,

If you feel comfortable carrying a .25 that is fine.

I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest that caliber to someone who is looking to get a CCW when we know there is much better guns out there for that purpose.

It would be a consideration due to how easily it can be concealed, and the damage it can do if strikes the right spots.

I know a man who was head shot with a .25. The bullet went straight through his brain and lodged against the far inside of his skull. The first time I saw him after the shooting, he had a large portion of his left frontal bone missing and a depression where it had been. The next time I saw him that had received reconstructive surgery. You would not know he had been shot there. He said knowing his prior physical condition, he knew he had lost a little physical coordination, but others could not tell.

A man with him was shot through the chest with the same .25. He ran about 50 yards, dropped, and died.

I hear what all of you are saying. I don't disagree except that any gun can kill. None should be ignored. The important things imho, are practicing enough with the weapon to be able to shoot accurately, and telling yourself in your mind often enough what is justification for using a gun, and steeling yourself to use it immediately when that justification is encountered.

But isn't that true for all guns and calibers?

 

[lklawson]

My wife will be twenty-one this month. Bought her a pistol and going to go through a cpl course as a birthday present. I got her a gen 2 Remington R51.

I own an R51. I was an early adopter and bought a Gen 1, traded it for the 1911R1 and, when the Gen 2 came out, I bought one. Some of the R51's have some quirks. The two that stand out are a quirk with the magazines (may not affect you - shoot it first) and a quirk with the Leade/Freebore which will probably affect you if you hand load. I don't recall what the policy here on MT for recommending off-site forums but I'm on an R51 specific forum which you might find helpful. PM me and I'll link for you if you're interested.

You should also be aware that the R51 sights are set, from the factory, to Center Hold, not Target. I discuss it in my review of the gun here:
Review - Remington R51

For myself, I have a n old Glock 20 with night sights.

How old? Tritium sights have a "best if used before" date.

I've been ridiculed for concealed carrying a full size pistol and for carrying a 10mm. But it conceals well.

Meh. If you can conceal it then it works.

I also open carry when it won't cause a fuss. I have big hands and I shoot alot so the larger frame of my glock doesn't seem like overkill. My position has been to carry the most firepower you can fully utalize. Let' trade opinions.

My opinion on what gun you should carry? I have two and only two requirements for your carry gun.
1) Your gun must be reliable. It should go bang when you press the trigger, every time you press the trigger, and only when you press the trigger.
2) You must be reliable. You should only deploy the gun when you are legally justified in doing so, deliver bullets to what your intended target is, and only deliver bullets to your intended target.

I don't care what brand you prefer, what caliber you like, where on your body you carry, or how you carry.

I don't care about the brand of gun, as long as YOUR GUN is reliable, it can be a "cheap junk brand Saturday night special." I don't care what caliber you prefer, from .22LR & .25ACP, up through .460 Rowland because, statistically speaking, there's darn little difference between calibers when it comes to "making the bad guy stop attacking you" and, in fact, (depending on your preferred study) has between a 60% and 90% success rate without ever being fired.

Buy what you want. Carry what you want. As long as you're safe and your gun is safe, it doesn't matter.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I would love to have one of these. This gun is not popular in US. It was very popular in my father's time back in China. You can switch between automatic and semi-automatic. When you switch to automatic, you can pull trigger just once and all 20 bullets will shot out.

They're still popular but pretty much are all in collectors hands now. The ones that weren't worn out or blown up by over-pressure ammo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

380 is fine. Never much liked the 9mm para. Do like 7.65x25 tok and 9x18.

Are you a Makarov collector? I've got an IJ70 18AH with 3 mags that I'm looking to divest myself of. They're kinda hard to come by these days. If you're interested send me a PM.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Will you think it is nitpicking when your .25 auto round hits my phone and a rib and fails to penetrate my chest cavity while my 9 mm goes through your phone, rib and lung?

Platt was notably unimpressed by 9mm Winchester Silvertips.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[oftheherd1]

Then is a larger caliber really such a big advantage, if you can't hit vital areas?
...
I am sure we can each come up with real life anecdotes to dispute each other. Fun to debate, but not to take to seriously.

Will you think it is nitpicking when your .25 auto round hits my phone and a rib and fails to penetrate my chest cavity while my 9 mm goes through your phone, rib and lung?

Just like a .22 or a .25 is not a good choice when now they make 9mm and .40s that are just as small but are more effective and efficient.

Fact is .22 and .25 are not good calibers for self defense.

I was going to let this thread go, but I guess it still has some life.

So ...

Why would I shoot your phone if you are the one I want to shoot? If they make 9mm and .40s that are as small as a .25, I need to start looking at pistols again. Seriously?

I agree a .22 is less good in general. But any gun can kill. If I have a gun I am skilled at using, and I think you are a real threat to my life, I would not suggest you discount any gun in my hands. Nor expect me to aim through anything but clothing. That is if I think the only way I can safely end the threat is to kill you.

That is all assuming of course, I did not think my MA would handle the situation.

 

[PhotonGuy]

God, I so hate guns. Even having worked with them my whole career, I fricken' hate them.

But I like to carry a Raven 25. Why? Because it's the only gun I've never seen jam in nearly forty years, and I don't miss with it. If I have to use it in civilian life, I don't care about knock down power, I just want to get their attention.

So than why do you carry them or work with them if you hate them?

 

[Runs With Fire]

I own an R51. I was an early adopter and bought a Gen 1, traded it for the 1911R1 and, when the Gen 2 came out, I bought one. Some of the R51's have some quirks. The two that stand out are a quirk with the magazines (may not affect you - shoot it first) and a quirk with the Leade/Freebore which will probably affect you if you hand load. I don't recall what the policy here on MT for recommending off-site forums but I'm on an R51 specific forum which you might find helpful. PM me and I'll link for you if you're interested.

You should also be aware that the R51 sights are set, from the factory, to Center Hold, not Target. I discuss it in my review of the gun here:
Review - Remington R51


How old? Tritium sights have a "best if used before" date.

Meh. If you can conceal it then it works.


My opinion on what gun you should carry? I have two and only two requirements for your carry gun.
1) Your gun must be reliable. It should go bang when you press the trigger, every time you press the trigger, and only when you press the trigger.
2) You must be reliable. You should only deploy the gun when you are legally justified in doing so, deliver bullets to what your intended target is, and only deliver bullets to your intended target.

I don't care what brand you prefer, what caliber you like, where on your body you carry, or how you carry.

I don't care about the brand of gun, as long as YOUR GUN is reliable, it can be a "cheap junk brand Saturday night special." I don't care what caliber you prefer, from .22LR & .25ACP, up through .460 Rowland because, statistically speaking, there's darn little difference between calibers when it comes to "making the bad guy stop attacking you" and, in fact, (depending on your preferred study) has between a 60% and 90% success rate without ever being fired.

Buy what you want. Carry what you want. As long as you're safe and your gun is safe, it doesn't matter.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Read that review, I agree with your conclusions. I haven't had any problems with the r51. It's about my favorite pistol ever. More accurate than my glock until 50 yards, then they're bout equal. Got it used, so it's broken in but still a bit crispy.

Target hold always throws me off. I have a Heritage revolver, took me forever to make a habit of aiming below the point of impact. It realy throws me off. Just bought a new caplock muzzleloader, set at target hold. Nearly took last place at the shoot, shot over the target at 100 yds.

The glock is a gen 2. Tritium is dead. I want to try and paint em white.