Why 33 rounds makes sense in a defensive weapon

[Big Don]

By the way, a handgun is one of those things that if you need it, you REALLY need it. An unloaded handgun is a small, unwieldy, ineffectual metal club, almost as worthless as **** on a boar.

 

[granfire]

By the way, a handgun is one of those things that if you need it, you REALLY need it. An unloaded handgun is a small, unwieldy, ineffectual metal club, almost as worthless as **** on a boar.

Well, an unloaded handgun is about, if not more, dangerous as a loaded one...

 

[granfire]

Or, like going to the supermarket in Tucson...

well, we get into our cars every day, knowing there are thousands every year being killed in car crashes...no telling who could not make it to the store that day because they died on the way there...

But it is a silly argument pulling cases from several years, spread around the whole country to make an argument as to why the normal person (who should not own a water pistol in many cases) needs a supersized magazine. Dieing in a car crash or a house fire are probably much more real and pressing than being shot by the wayward crazy or even a stray bullet in a bad neighborhood! Heck, even a city of a population of roughly 1.2 million like Birmingham, Al, the states largest city only averages around below100 homicides every year.

Using the extreme cases to justify 'normal' is silly.

 

[Cryozombie]

But it is a silly argument pulling cases from several years, spread around the whole country to make an argument as to why the normal person (who should not own a water pistol in many cases) needs a supersized magazine. Dieing in a car crash or a house fire are probably much more real and pressing than being shot by the wayward crazy or even a stray bullet in a bad neighborhood! Heck, even a city of a population of roughly 1.2 million like Birmingham, Al, the states largest city only averages around below100 homicides every year.

Using the extreme cases to justify 'normal' is silly.

So why are you using it to justify taking Hi Cap Magazines from people? If out of 1.2 million people, there are below 100 homicides every year, and most of those don't occur because of Hi Cap Magazines...

What is the problem with Hi Cap Mags?

 

[Cryozombie]

Ok I can understand that, though that seems like an awful lot of time wasted just to put some bullets in a magazine. another question: does the added weight of 16 or so additional bullets not change the physical feedback of the gun?

Yes. But if you are shooting what is "normal" for you that is what you are shooting. Think of it like saying "doesn't you taijutsu change because you have a 6 foot pole in your arms" well, yeah it's probably different than if you didn't have the 6 foot pole in your arms, UNLESS you do your Taijutsu with a 6 foot pole in your arms in which case Taijutsu is taijutsu, if that makes sense.

 

[granfire]

So why are you using it to justify taking Hi Cap Magazines from people? If out of 1.2 million people, there are below 100 homicides every year, and most of those don't occur because of Hi Cap Magazines...

What is the problem with Hi Cap Mags?

They are not needed?
I mean, if you say you want one, because it's like totally freakin awesome to pop 33 rounds into your target t the range, because you can, that's one argument.
I can see that.
But - as you said - the hi cap mags don't figure in SD, on either side of the balance sheet.

The scenarios in which one might find the need for one are straight out of the script of a bad Hollywood flic...

However, citing all the maniacs who go off shooting without a reason are exactly the reason why those things should NOT be in circulation.

 

[Big Don]

They are not needed?

Ipods aren't needed, BAN THEM.
Cell Phones aren't needed, BAN THEM.
Martial arts aren't needed, BAN THEM.
Oh, that guy, over there, the annoying one, he isn't needed, kill him...

 

[granfire]

Ipods aren't needed, BAN THEM. Check
Cell Phones aren't needed, BAN THEM. Check
Martial arts aren't needed, BAN THEM. weeeeeeelllllllll
Oh, that guy, over there, the annoying one, he isn't needed, kill him...I see you met my deadbeat Brother-in-law....

:lfao:

I think you forgot a few items that needs banning tho

 

[Cryozombie]

However, citing all the maniacs who go off shooting without a reason are exactly the reason why those things should NOT be in circulation.

See, no. Because that then Validates Big Don's claim which you said isn't valid.

You can either accept that a small random minority of events is catastrophic and needs to be dealt with, therefore the few Self Defense Scenarios Don put forth are Valid, or you can say a small random minority of events is by no means indicative, in which case there is no reason to ban Hi Cap Mags.

I see no valid reason for you to have your cake and eat it too... sorry.

 

[jks9199]

well, we get into our cars every day, knowing there are thousands every year being killed in car crashes...no telling who could not make it to the store that day because they died on the way there...

But it is a silly argument pulling cases from several years, spread around the whole country to make an argument as to why the normal person (who should not own a water pistol in many cases) needs a supersized magazine. Dieing in a car crash or a house fire are probably much more real and pressing than being shot by the wayward crazy or even a stray bullet in a bad neighborhood! Heck, even a city of a population of roughly 1.2 million like Birmingham, Al, the states largest city only averages around below100 homicides every year.

Using the extreme cases to justify 'normal' is silly.

No, we get in the car and we do what we can to mitigate the risks. We drive cars with modern safety features like crumple zones and airbags, and we keep the cars in good working order. We wear our seat belts, and we drive defensively, mindful of the other drivers. If we're smart, we don't text and we limit phone use while driving, etc.

In the same fashion, we may choose to carry various weapons, including firearms, in accord with the law and our constitutional rights, in order to be prepared for violence and to mitigate that risk.

 

[granfire]

No, we get in the car and we do what we can to mitigate the risks. We drive cars with modern safety features like crumple zones and airbags, and we keep the cars in good working order. We wear our seat belts, and we drive defensively, mindful of the other drivers. If we're smart, we don't text and we limit phone use while driving, etc.

In the same fashion, we may choose to carry various weapons, including firearms, in accord with the law and our constitutional rights, in order to be prepared for violence and to mitigate that risk.

Every year a small town is whiped out on the roads of the US...many more than killed by gun fire...even the war did not cost this many casualties...

 

[Big Don]

Every year a small town is whiped out on the roads of the US...many more than killed by gun fire...even the war did not cost this many casualties...

Yet no one is clamoring to ban cars, or for that manner, high capacity fuel tanks...

 

[jetboatdeath]

Arguing gun right and bans with people who think banning anything they see as "useless" is to put it bluntly.. like trying to win a piss fight with a skunk...

They do not listen to logic, they can't because if they do stop and think their entire argument falls apart. That's why every logical attempt to show them that having hi-cap mags does nothing to promote crime is countered with the same old argument.. but..but I like my car..I am careful when I drive..and such.
I have dealt with it for years..it gets old, all you can do is shake your head and pray they never run for office. Just leave them alone thinking they somehow changed the world because you will never change their minds.

I am careful with my 30 round mags. I like my 30 round mags.

You saying I can not have them is like me saying you can't have a car.

Well kind of because owing a car is not a right and all, I know that silly Constitution again, just remember it is the same one you run to when someone says God within 20 feet of a school...

It is that simple...really..
Sorry to burst your simple little bubble..

 

[granfire]

Arguing gun right and bans with people who think banning anything they see as "useless" is to put it bluntly.. like trying to win a piss fight with a skunk...

They do not listen to logic, they can't because if they do stop and think their entire argument falls apart. That's why every logical attempt to show them that having hi-cap mags does nothing to promote crime is countered with the same old argument.. but..but I like my car..I am careful when I drive..and such.
I have dealt with it for years..it gets old, all you can do is shake your head and pray they never run for office. Just leave them alone thinking they somehow changed the world because you will never change their minds.

I am careful with my 30 round mags. I like my 30 round mags.

You saying I can not have them is like me saying you can't have a car.

Well kind of because owing a car is not a right and all, I know that silly Constitution again, just remember it is the same one you run to when someone says God within 20 feet of a school...

It is that simple...really..
Sorry to burst your simple little bubble..

Ah, no.

They don't do nothing, neither for nor against crime. But they are - with the exception of army and maybe cops simply not needed.

Having them and enjoying them is a different matter, as long as you empty them on an inanimate target.

However...
bad poop happens...

 

[granfire]

Yet no one is clamoring to ban cars, or for that manner, high capacity fuel tanks...

Well, thank you, I suppose, though you are turning this argument on me.

But there you have it. You can't live your life with the 'what if's' be that gun man or accident, though the latter is more likely to affect you in your life time.

 

[jetboatdeath]

Ah, no.

They don't do nothing, neither for nor against crime. But they are - with the exception of army and maybe cops simply not needed.

All that is needed to complete that well thought out argument is this added line at the end of your post.

BECAUSE I SAID SO..

You have to make it big like that or it lacks all merit.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

But it is a silly argument pulling cases from several years, spread around the whole country to make an argument as to why the normal person (who should not own a water pistol in many cases) needs a supersized magazine. Dieing in a car crash or a house fire are probably much more real and pressing than being shot by the wayward crazy or even a stray bullet in a bad neighborhood! Heck, even a city of a population of roughly 1.2 million like Birmingham, Al, the states largest city only averages around below100 homicides every year.

Using the extreme cases to justify 'normal' is silly.

Get your arguments straight.

My bringing up of mass casualty incidents directly related to your comment that if a person finds themselves in on, then they made some prior poor decisions. The only thing those people did "wrong" was go about their everyday normal routine, such as going to school, work, and eat. It had nothing to do with hi-cap magazines at all, but your statement regarding decisions.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Points to ponder though:
Putting those large magazines into the hands of the general public also puts them in hands of the gun afisionado who might snap under stress at any time. Bad enough to have somebody go postal with the normal amount of rounds. (not to mention you can have a lot of those....if the aggressor shooter can quickly reload, the SD shooter should be able to as well, no?)

It also puts them into the hands of law abiding citizens who may need all of those rounds to stop an assailant.

Some questions though: What is the "normal amount of rounds"? At what capacity would you limit magazine capacity?

The average gun owner does not practice shooting. Not on a regular basis as one should when you deem a gun a valid means of SD.

What's your point?

Actually, I would tell you that "practicing shooting" does little to prepare you for combat, which is what a gunfight is. Add stress, adrenaline, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of bowel control and you have a really f'd up day.

They may actually need those rounds to defend themselves.

The distance between the shooter and the target can be closed rather quickly by the determined. I forgot the exact numbers, but they were astonishingly small. Add to that the miss rate of trained shooters like cops....The chances of an amateur getting off 33 rounds and doing more than shooting holes into the air (and maybe bystanders) are on the remote side.

You don't know that. In fact, I would ventrue to argue that most "shooters" have more practice and accuracy ability then most cops. Go to an IPSC match and see for yourself.

Then, should the unimaginable have happened and you have been separated from your gun you get to look down the barrel of a weapon you outfitted with many more bullets than is needed to kill you.

Then, you utilize the capacity of your magazine to take out the bad guy. We can play what if's all day.

The logistics for the average person to keep a gun for SD purposes is staggering. Let alone a supersized one.

Glock: $580 (comes with two magazines)
Ammunition: $20 for a box of 50 9mm, more for larger calibers
Gun lock (a legal requirement in california) $15

I'm not seeing the staggering logistical cost here.

Now, I let you get back to your movie fantasies about standing in a hail of lead and dropping 20 bad guys with your trusty six shooter....

Have you been involved in a shooting or shooting investigation? If not, by what basis do you make any statment regarding actual shootings?

 

[granfire]

Get your arguments straight.

My bringing up of mass casualty incidents directly related to your comment that if a person finds themselves in on, then they made some prior poor decisions. The only thing those people did "wrong" was go about their everyday normal routine, such as going to school, work, and eat. It had nothing to do with hi-cap magazines at all, but your statement regarding decisions.

Well, going about your normal routine is the point, no?

So if you follow that trail, you are many times more likely to be killed in a car wreck than some random shoot out. size of the magazine not withstanding...

So, as per your argument one case every few years trumps a small town every year...(yep, pretty steady, plus minus a few thousand, the casualties of traffic accidents are around the 30k every year...not counting the injured ones)

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Ah, no.

They don't do nothing, neither for nor against crime. But they are - with the exception of army and maybe cops simply not needed.

Having them and enjoying them is a different matter, as long as you empty them on an inanimate target.

However...
bad poop happens...

Here's a question: Are you for the banning of hi-cap gun magazines?