coffeerox
Green Belt
Is this found in Wing Chun? Or is this something that Bruce Lee picked up outside of WC?
Hand must come first concept
- Thread starter coffeerox
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cwk
Blue Belt
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From what I've seen on youtube of this concept, it's usually done with the lead punch and looks like it was borrowed from boxing.
I can see how this would fit with the JKD footwork while advancing but I can't see how it would work from a stationary position as it would lack power.
I always use my hips when punching whether it be a short thrust, a twist or a full pivot. Moving the hand first might cut down on telegraphing but I personally prefer proper kinetic linkage for power.
I can see how this would fit with the JKD footwork while advancing but I can't see how it would work from a stationary position as it would lack power.
I always use my hips when punching whether it be a short thrust, a twist or a full pivot. Moving the hand first might cut down on telegraphing but I personally prefer proper kinetic linkage for power.
- Thread Starter
- #3
Yeah, it comes from JKD's straight lead/jab. It has amazing explosive speed, reach and power. It works from a stationary position, but it can't be the WC stance which is square on.
I think it can be doable from the side-stance which is pretty much the bai jong but with man/wu sao but you would need specialized training with that from William Cheung's lineage.
I think it can be doable from the side-stance which is pretty much the bai jong but with man/wu sao but you would need specialized training with that from William Cheung's lineage.
mook jong man
Senior Master
In our lineage when you start off learning to step and punch , you are told to visualise a piece of string going from your elbow to your knee so that when you step and punch the movement is synchronized for maximum power. ie the punch and the foot are landing about the same time.
But as a student becomes more advanced the student finds that the speed of their punch is a lot faster than the movement of their step , because the arm is of smaller mass than the leg and it can be moved quicker.
If we were to still synchronize our arm and our leg like we did when we were a junior , our punch would have to be slowed down so it could be in time with our step this leads to a loss of acceleration and penetrative power.
I spoke about this once to my Sifu after I watched him punch , and to me it was like his punch went out with great speed and then his body was dragged after the punch and then caught up with it which created the striking power , and he said yes it was like his punch dragged his body along.
So yes I believe the hand goes out a nanosecond before to start the momentum which enables the body to get the ball rolling so to speak from its state of inertia , then with very careful coordination the body mass is brought in to transmit force through the arm and into the target.
Of course this takes very careful coordination and years of training to perfect.
But as a student becomes more advanced the student finds that the speed of their punch is a lot faster than the movement of their step , because the arm is of smaller mass than the leg and it can be moved quicker.
If we were to still synchronize our arm and our leg like we did when we were a junior , our punch would have to be slowed down so it could be in time with our step this leads to a loss of acceleration and penetrative power.
I spoke about this once to my Sifu after I watched him punch , and to me it was like his punch went out with great speed and then his body was dragged after the punch and then caught up with it which created the striking power , and he said yes it was like his punch dragged his body along.
So yes I believe the hand goes out a nanosecond before to start the momentum which enables the body to get the ball rolling so to speak from its state of inertia , then with very careful coordination the body mass is brought in to transmit force through the arm and into the target.
Of course this takes very careful coordination and years of training to perfect.
Well, the concept is both from boxing and fencing the other two main influences on Bruce Lee's JKD, alot of the straight lead material is primarily fencing based.
zepedawingchun
Black Belt
Specialized training? JKD or William Cheung's line is not the only lineage that does it. In the thread, Wing Tsun Emin Boztepe pt. 1-7 , first video posted, Emin Sifu demonstrates it. Granted, he starts from the Kim Yeung Ma stance, but steps forward into bai jong and strikes.
In our lineage, the bai jong or ju sun ma stance is the preferred fighting stance. The square on stance (yee jee kim yeung ma) is a training stance and used in combat (maybe) if you are in close (elbow range) and have control of your opponent or the situation.
matsu
Purple Belt
we are taught that its the initial distance that determines our stance...
effectively what zepeda has just said....
the bai jong or ju sun ma stance is the preferred fighting stance. The square on stance (yee jee kim yeung ma) is a training stance and used in combat (maybe) if you are in close (elbow range) and have control of your opponent or the situation.
i realised just last weds that actually we square up a lot more in a fight/sparring scenario than i thought. i think my old karate days drags me back to a side on stance and i need to stay squarer esp as they retreat and i can equally use both hands rather than be effectively forced to use the lead hand by my stance.
matsu
effectively what zepeda has just said....
the bai jong or ju sun ma stance is the preferred fighting stance. The square on stance (yee jee kim yeung ma) is a training stance and used in combat (maybe) if you are in close (elbow range) and have control of your opponent or the situation.
i realised just last weds that actually we square up a lot more in a fight/sparring scenario than i thought. i think my old karate days drags me back to a side on stance and i need to stay squarer esp as they retreat and i can equally use both hands rather than be effectively forced to use the lead hand by my stance.
matsu
Lol I know exactly what you mean, when I was a kid I studied a Northern style of Kung Fu and am used to the side stance too. I just panic and do what comes natural most of the time....run away ;-)
It is amazing how quickly everything turns to rat **** when I am under pressure, stance, hands.....when I last chi sau'd with a guy who was far better than me, he said why are you tensing up? nothing is going to happen!! He was right, it wasn't like he was going to punch me in the face...well not yet anyway!!
I need to drill more, my footwork and punching. My problem is time at the moment, only 7 weeks until we go and the house is upside down!!
WC_lun
Senior Master
We also have it in our system of Wing Chun. Stance, like other parts of technique arise from the situation. Having a doi ying, or square facing stance, while trading hands with any energy is a bad idea. You will have a much harder time deflecting or shearing thier power and triangulating your own power correctly.
If done properly, the hands leading is a good tool. Unfortunately, a lot of people read that Bruce Lee did this and try to imitate him, only to break there own centerline in the process.
If done properly, the hands leading is a good tool. Unfortunately, a lot of people read that Bruce Lee did this and try to imitate him, only to break there own centerline in the process.
