Haganah?

[Jonathan]

As a spin-off from my thread asking about the FIGHT program in another part of these forums, I'm wondering... what is the difference between Haganah and Krav Maga? Is it one of regional idiosyncracies, similar to two schools of same-style kung fu having different 'takes' on particular forms?

 

[Loki]

Different name for legal purposes

 

[stone_dragone]

The founder Mike Lee Kamerick/Kanmerk/something like that... states that he draws heavily from Krav Maga in the Haganah system. To it, he claims to add elements of kapop and lotar (of which I admitedly know nothing). I have reviewed the DVDs from the FIGHT series and studied Krav Maga for about a year. It appears that the differences are mainly in the focus. Haganah is technique intensive and, from my exposure to Krav maga, it seemed to be very movement oriented (read: footwork).

Not an expert at either form, but I greatly admire the nature of both...they have influenced how I teach self-defence and close quarters combat.

My two bits..

 

[Loki]

The founder Mike Lee Kamerick/Kanmerk/something like that... states that he draws heavily from Krav Maga in the Haganah system. To it, he claims to add elements of kapop and lotar (of which I admitedly know nothing). I have reviewed the DVDs from the FIGHT series and studied Krav Maga for about a year. It appears that the differences are mainly in the focus. Haganah is technique intensive and, from my exposure to Krav maga, it seemed to be very movement oriented (read: footwork).

Not an expert at either form, but I greatly admire the nature of both...they have influenced how I teach self-defence and close quarters combat.

My two bits..

Kinda funny. It's like an auto mechanic swindling you by using all sorts of technical terms to confuse you. That's one reason why I like this place: it's like the buddy that knows all about cars that comes with you and sets everything straight.

For the record:

Krav Maga - The Israeli fighting style (not a martial art) that includes both self-defense techniques and hand to hand combat.

KAPAP - Acronym literally meaning "face to face combat". This is what all combat sports (Kickboxing, Muay Thai) are about.

Haganah - Krav Maga with another name for legal purposes. We don't have this in Israel. Say "Haganah" in Israel and they'll think you're referring to the Jewish militia from the 40's.

Lotar - Means "counter-terrorism". Lotar usually refers to an army course, not self-defense curriculum.

So what he's effectively saying, that he teaches Krav Maga (that's the self-defense bit) as well as KAPAP (which is the combatives part, technically also a part of Krav Maga) and throws in Lotar elements (read: throws in some military drills, which is part of Krav Maga's black belts curriculum). What you're getting here is Krav Maga, no more, but possibly less.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I remember getting a century update about one of their functions where you could go and become a haganah or a FIGHT instructor in one weekend. (not absolutely sure if it was just one or both) Then they listed everyone who attended later on as a certifide school. That kind of turned me off right there. Mostly it looked like TKD or Karate schools adding a new program to their schedule. One weekend though is just not enough to promote someone so that they can teach an art or even a core course of that art. This type of thing is also really popular in Defensive Tactics courses in Law Enforcement. When I went through the acadmy (a long time ago) they were actively recruiting us to take a weekend course and become a Defensive Tactics instructor. (yes, that is right one weekend) This type of marketing while effective is just not above board in my book. What kind of depth or skill will an instructor be teaching having only learned the material once during a weekend course. Just my two cents and if you disagree that is cool with me!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Loki]

I agree with you fully. I get the impression that most KM schools in America function that way, a two week course for certification.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing is for sure is that it is very nice to have someone here from Israel that is in touch with Krav Maga as practiced there! Next time you get a chance could you post some picture's of where you train or a website! I would also be interested if you have any real combative stories from anyone you personally know about how they applied Krav Maga in real life!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[seal]

You have to be smart when looking for a self-defense school, at least in America (I can't speak for our friends in Canada). A lot of places try to sell you something. Some Krav Maga schools are more like mma than self-defense. That is, they don't or infrequently touch upon pre- and post-conflict stages.

Combatatives are more mental than physical. What I mean by that is a military fights with technology and strategy, not hands and feet. If the intention is to kill, WWII combatatives are still among the standard. You don't need to be an MMA fighter to kill someone; it also doesn't mean you're a tough guy and can take on Fedor in a back alley brawl -- situation dictates tactics.

Anyway, don't look for gimmicks. Use your best judgement. I prefer to seek out individuals over the art. The only two guys that I have spoken with (briefly) who have won me over are Avi Nardia and David Kahn. Now I'm lucky b/c I live in NY. In the midwest, the frequency of schools is smaller. The most important thing to remember, whether it's Haganah or some other self-defense program, is they are not designed to make you a fighter. These civilian programs are designed to give you those few precious seconds to escape and call for help (the first rule). I personally don't care for these certificates, even from Jim Wagner, because I'm the type of guy who needs to repeat something multiple times before it becomes instinctive. A "weekend" certificate or seminar may not gurantee this.

 

[TCBA_JOE]

I found this the other day:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/krav-maga-not-alone.htm

Question, do these 2 week cert. require you already be an instructor in other MA?

 

[dok]

My impression (Based solely on reading online, mind you, not firsthand knowledge) - is that haganah differed from krav maga in that it teaches/encourages/incorporates the use of edged weapons.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I found this the other day:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/krav-maga-not-alone.htm

Question, do these 2 week cert. require you already be an instructor in other MA?

That's a good question.

I know that the L.A. group required such individuals to have a certain number of years in related arts, but I don't know how much that was enforced. A local sport TKD school added basic KM to their sylabus and their SD students stopped doing self-defence techniques that utilized roundhouse kicks to the head, LOL.

 

[TCBA_JOE]

That's a good question.

I know that the L.A. group required such individuals to have a certain number of years in related arts, but I don't know how much that was enforced. A local sport TKD school added basic KM to their sylabus and their SD students stopped doing self-defence techniques that utilized roundhouse kicks to the head, LOL.

So it can't be too bad of a thing can it?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

So it can't be too bad of a thing can it?

Relatively...

 

[searcher]

Loki, what about Hisardut?