So, when these killers do their deeds and claim it is in response to the wars in the middle east, they really mean, "We hate you because you're free."?
Grisly islamist attack in Britain...
- Thread starter billc
- Start date
So, when these killers do their deeds and claim it is in response to the wars in the middle east, they really mean, "We hate you because you're free."?
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Not quite! They hate us because we are a philosophically Judeo-Christian people. They hate us because on the whole we are tolerant towards those who would be beheaded or stoned in Islamic nations. They hate us because we are not, on the whole, followers of Islam.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question, how do we appease the opposing hateful bastards, you know, the ones who want the guys who beheaded one of Britains finest dead?
Oh, and you didn't answer my question, how do we appease the opposing hateful bastards, you know, the ones who want the guys who beheaded one of Britains finest dead?
Bill, we have had our differences of opinion over the years but on this one we are marching side by side. :s151:
I seriously doubt that Islam is going to catch any toehold in the West. The trend has been toward atheism for decades.
Not for the migrant population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population
It's less of an issue than people think. Besides, wouldn't cultural mixing with the West be the biggest influence in actually moderating Islam?
It is a huge issue. Every other wave of immigrants has integrated into society within one or two generations. The exceptions, Orthodox Jews and Muslims. They will not allow their children to go out with potential partners outside the faith unless those people convert to their faith. In the case of the Muslims there are numerous examples of beatings and even killings when a daughter defies this ban. At present they represent a growing section of the population and are demanding more and more rights, including Sharia Law, in our society. We have more and more militant voices preaching in the mosques and I would consider it the number one problem in Australia at present. Most of the illegal immigrants seeking asylum in Australia are Muslim.
Britain has an even bigger problem.
It is hard to find any statistics for Hawaii. The best I can do is find reference to one mosque. So it appears you may be right. In Hawaii you don't have an issue. Unfortunately the rest of us do. :asian:
Hawaii is so small and our major industries are government and tourism. There isn't much reason for Muslim people to want to move here. The people who I do see and interact with seem fine. Several mothers at my school wear headscarves and traditional muslim clothing and they raise really smart and well behaved children.
That said, this idea of creeping Sharia law seems like the same idea as the creeping Red threat. It seems like the same Cold War propaganda, but the focus has merely shifted. There were actual Communists, but they were not the threat they were made out to be. Perhaps it's the same with Muslims?
Governments are great at stirring up hatred of the "other" when soldiers are in the field.
That said, this idea of creeping Sharia law seems like the same idea as the creeping Red threat. It seems like the same Cold War propaganda, but the focus has merely shifted. There were actual Communists, but they were not the threat they were made out to be. Perhaps it's the same with Muslims?
Governments are great at stirring up hatred of the "other" when soldiers are in the field.
This article looks at the integration problem...
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/riots_and_liberals.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/riots_and_liberals.html
I think that this post shows a lack of understanding of the problems inherent in the Islamic religion and the radical elements within. The change we are facing is from a secular society where we are ruled by elected representatives to a religious society where the rules are made and enforced by the Imams, some of whom are radical. I think there is a huge difference between Communism and Islam.
As a child growing up in the 50s, Communism was a very real fear. Our troops were just back from Korea where the Communist forces were using human wave tactics and the prospect of waves of Chinese invading Australia was a real fear. Remember, we had already had the Japanese down as far as New Guinea and bombing Darwin only 10 years earlier. The fear as Khrushchev was sending his missiles to Cuba was the worst time for me and really, when Kennedy forced them to turn the boats, that was the end of the Communist threat as far as we were concerned. Of course the Cold War simmered <sic> for the next 30 years but never with the intensity we felt at that time. But Communism was an ideology. Basically wherever it exists it was achieved by armed conflict. There are a couple of exceptions to that.
But to me the threat of radical Islam is far more insidious. 23% of the world's population is Muslim and very few of those live in First World countries. Most Muslims live in poor countries with little prospect of bettering themselves. They move to places like Europe and Australia to what they consider a much better life, then they try to change wherever they are to the same state they had back home. Nominally, there are more Christians, but how many 'Christians' are actually practising Christians? We wouldn't consider allowing the Christian Church to make and impose our laws, yet we have a growing percentage of our community Hell bent on imposing their's.
As I said, you don't have a problem in Hawaii ... yet! After they f*** the rest of the world you can bet they will discover Hawaii. :asian:
I think there is little to no chance of a "wave" of immigrants actually enshrining Sharia Law in a Western country. The idea completely preposterous, especially when you consider that religiosity has been declining in Western countries for decades. The bottom line is that secular governments are here to stay. People in the West like it, despite even the complaints from some of the more extreme Christian groups.
If Muslim people have problems integrating, I think it probably has everything to do with the Welfare State, as BillC pointed out. It's not an issue with Islam at all, in fact if you look at other non-Muslim immigrant groups, in places where heaped on benefits take away the incentive to integrate through work, there are always huge issues with integration.
Of course all of this is just a huge boon to governments engaged in Imperial foreign policy. The government creates an environment where immigrants groups have trouble integrating and then it turns around and demonizes them...so citizens will vote to kill kith and kin overseas. I doubt it's some big conspiracy either, it's just an unhappy accident where one predatory wing of the government can take advantage of another.
Personally, I think the lesson citizens could learn from all of this is that if you want to stop the "problem" of the "growing" influence of Islam in Western countries, stop listening to the corporate war propagandists in the media, take away the welfare benefits, and give immigrants real incentive to integrate. The cultural mixing opportunities could actually be tremendous. For example, I would love to discuss the notion that, "there are no gods, but Allah."
After a dose of reason and science, perhaps we could stop with, "there are no gods."
I don't know if it's a matter of not understanding radical Islam. I think it's more of a lack of understanding about the negative effects of entitlement programs. All immigrants that get handouts have a hard time integrating. The same could be said of Native people, but that's a far sadder story.
You are right though, big government is ultimately the problem. Big government gives the handouts that take away the incentives to integrate and big government uses the problems this creates to justify big government foreign policy.
Sorry Maka. With regard to Australia, what you have said is a load of bollocks. We don't have a problem with people from any culture physically integrating into our cities. We are amongst the most cosmopolitan countries on Earth. We don't have the situation described in Bill's link and I doubt Britain and Europe do either. If The US does then it is a second problem that you have on top of the first.
There is nothing in anything you have written that indicates you understand anything about the Islamic religion. Perhaps if you researched that instead of just blaming the government we might be able to have a more sensible discussion. :asian:
As to the existence of God. I think that the actions of lots of people in the name of God goes a long way towards disproving the existence of God. :asian:
Then why is there so much concern regarding Muslims? It would seem to me that Australia does have a problem integrating certain populations of Muslims.
Rather than blaming the radicals, is there something your country could do better?
I disagree, I think you'll find that some problems caused by government are universal.
What reason do they have to integrate? What incentives? People respond to incentives and if wrong incentives are sent to a community, they aren't going to integrate. Have you considered the possibility that somehow this minority population is actually being enabled by government to behave in this way?
Please, feel free to point out a few. Beheadings, inflammatory oratory, victimisation of children? They are my concerns.
Maybe. Seeing you obviously know more about Australia's problem than I do, feel free to enlighten me. :asian:
