Grappling

[Marginal]

With the wild claim offered in the general self defense forum that WTF, ITF, ATA etc all don't teach even basic grappling elements like counters to wrist grabs until BB, if then, I found it interesting that apparently every single TKD practitioner on MT said "Uh, what?" in response to the assertion.

Despite the fact that I'm assured it's generally true , I'd think that there would be at least a few TKDers on MT that don't train some grappling elements. So, bascially I'm wondering what the general self-defense approach is in the dojangs frequented by TKDers that are here on MT. Unless only the folks who avoided the McDojos are the only ones that care enough to post here, you'd think that a representative sample would emerge...

Anyway, basic self defense requirements per belt in the USTF syllabus go about like this:

White Belt- Two releases from a straight grab to the wrist. Also two releases from a cross grab to the wrist.

Yellow belt- One release from a double grab to the lapel. One release from a double grab to the wrist. One joint attack from a double handed choke. (That could be the ol' Frankenstein style grab, or other stuff like a rear naked choke etc) One joint attack from a straight grab to the wrist. One joint attack from a single cross grab to the wrist. One joint attack from a double grab to the wrist. One joint attack from a single grab to the label. Basic understanding of pressure points.

Green belt- Demonstrate breakfalls. (Front, side, back, somersaults) Single choke from the front, double choke from front, single choke from rear, double choke from rear. (All of these are demonstrating basic grappling attacks, not defenses.) One throw against a punch, throw against a front kick, throw against a straight fingertip thrust.

Blue belt- Throw vs back piercing kick. Capture a side piercing kick, capture a front kick. Defend against front double choke, defend against single choke from the rear, defend against a headlock. Defend against a full nelson, defend against a front bear hug, defend against a bear hug from behind (both are over the arms) defend against a front single hair grab, defend against a rear single hand hair grab. Scissor kick takedown, foot sweeps vs L stance.

Red belt- Throw vs turning kick, throw against inward knife hand strike, throw vs double front choke, throw vs side-piercing kick. Demonstrate six pressure points w/passive partner. Demonstrate two pressure points against attacking partner.

1st dan- 1-2 minute demonstration of self defense against (in no particular order) punch, inward strike w/reverse knife hand, backfist, twin lapel grab, single grab from behind (not a choke), straight or cross grab to arm or wrist, front snap kick, turning kick, back piercing kick, choke with hands from behind.

(Usually see a lot of throws and takedowns in these demos)

2nd dan- 1-2 minute demonstration against two attackers. No predefined attacks.

3rd dan+ no specific self defense testing requirements. (Mostly spun into step sparring.)

Outside of testing requirements, there are also self defense seminars that cover other grappling topics like ground fighting etc.

 

[bignick]

I'll have to get back to this one when I have some time...I'm getting ready for a weeklong road trip....good topic

 

[arnisador]

This isn't waht I think of as grappling. It's self-defense against some basic grabs, but not how to deal with a tackle/takedown, or how to defend oneself on the ground, etc.

 

[Marginal]

Yes, but given the initial claim was that not even basic stand up grappling techniques like wrist grabs were addressed until BB, I think stand up grappling, even basic stuff qualifies. Either way, I think it's an iffy claim to offer that ground fighting = self defense or even, the sumtotal of grappling.

 

[FearlessFreep]

There was someone a few months ago...a want to say MichiganTKD but I don't think so...who talked about his instructor demonstrating against someone trained in grappling. The thing was, the TKD was still able to use pretty straight TKD hand and leg strikes even when on the ground with the grappler. It was more just understanding how to use the art's techniques in different situations.

 

[Spookey]

Dear Marginal,

Here are the general requirements per belt rank at our dojang.

White / Release from a straight wrist grab, cross wrist grab, and two handed choke (two releases each...one release and strike, one release and restraint), straight armbar

Yellow / Defense against a rear bear hug, defense against a rear naked choke (standing), defense against a double wrist grab (front and rear), breakfalls and rolling

Green / Straight armbar over the shoulder, figure four armlock, keyhole lock

Blue / defense against a tackle, ankle pick, and double leg takedown, striking from the ground

Red / applicable understanding of the utilization of releases, basic joint destruction, and striking from the ground (generally with the intention of returning to the feet, but also for the sake of ending the attack when the situation permits)

Black / more advanced techniques requiring greater understanding of more advanced movements and application

These are the bare minimum explanations of what are instructed in our dojang. We do not train from a sporting point of view such as is demonstrated in the MMA...bare in mind the easiest way to get out of a rear naked choke is to simply break the fingers. We are strong proponents of small joint manipulation as it is the easiest way to inflict damage in a real world situation!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[arnisador]

Yes, but given the initial claim was that not even basic stand up grappling techniques like wrist grabs were addressed until BB, I think stand up grappling, even basic stuff qualifies.

Fair enough.

 

[Shu2jack]

As far as the ATA is concerned when it comes to self-defense;

The basic forms contain grappling elements. When you chamber for a reverse punch, the chambered hand is going to punch and the out-reached hand is grabbing the guy's hair/head/arm/shirt and pulling it forward as you crack him. Our blue belt form has a move in which you are performing a head grab at close range and ramming your knee into your opponent. Lots of things like that, though it applies more to you as the person grabbing your opponent and striking him.

When it comes to grapple defense we include; Wrist grab (same side and cross), two-handed wrist grab, lapel grab (one and two hands), throat choke, head lock, rear bear hug, rear throat grab.

While not written on the curriculum sheet, many instructors teach how to fall and roll as it is not uncommon for students to fall or get tripped up in sparring.

Some schools actually ground fight. Myself, I go into the basic positions (guard, side mount, full mount, etc.), how to cover up if someone is in a position to pound on you, escapes from the basic positions, basic joint locks and chokes, and occassionally (not as often as I would like due to the type of floor at the school) we just spend time wrestling.

 

[Andrew Green]

every single TKD practitioner on MT said "Uh, what?" in response to the assertion.

Just remember that the people on martial talk do not represent the majority of martial arts practitioners. Just a small minority that has a different way of thinking from the masses of people that go to class, go home and not think about it at all until next class.

People here are ones that go out and look for what they want, do the research, and avoid the places that don't teach what they want to learn.

So every single TKD person on here might do grappling techniques, and at the same time only a very small percentage of TKD schools do.

 

[TKDKid]

Just remember that the people on martial talk do not represent the majority of martial arts practitioners. Just a small minority that has a different way of thinking from the masses of people that go to class, go home and not think about it at all until next class.

People here are ones that go out and look for what they want, do the research, and avoid the places that don't teach what they want to learn.

So every single TKD person on here might do grappling techniques, and at the same time only a very small percentage of TKD schools do.

That is a very good point.

We're required to show basic defense against numerous wrist graps, choke holds, collar grabs, etc... on our rank tests. I guess I just assumed all TKD schools did.

 

[Marginal]

Just remember that the people on martial talk do not represent the majority of martial arts practitioners.

This is true. However, you'd think that there would be some overlap between reality and MT.

So every single TKD person on here might do grappling techniques, and at the same time only a very small percentage of TKD schools do.

Or it was just a randomly generated, largely basless perception. (That may not be the case, but it's just as valid a claim.) I don't think anyone can (or would care enough) to look into actually drawing up a factually supported ratio here.