Grappling With The Knife!
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
chav buster
Yellow Belt
sounds like a pretty good drill especially if you go at it full bore!
lklawson
Grandmaster
Well, I see that this thread has been resurrected so I might as well throw my $0.02 in.
Being both a grappler (Judo and C&E) and a knife fella (Bowie), here's my take on it.
Unarmed against a knife, you're borked. You might get lucky (and training can help improve your luck but it's still luck) and capture the knife hand without getting hit too bad. That's really your main goal if escape is not an option. If you can capture the knife hand, then you've got an advantage. However the advantage is at least as much, if not more psychological as physical. You are best off keeping TWO hands on your opponents weapon limb because it's so darn easy for a person to twist out of a single handed grasp. That leaves his "live hand" free for mayhem. Sure it's not bladed mayhem but it'll get the job done nonetheless. But most people won't think of it. Can't count on that though. FMA and SEAA represents an important and growing segment of MA training.
If you can chuck the opponent on the ground, well and good. Lay your knees into him or take the boot to him. Don't let go of your grasp though. Your hamstring and femoral are easy targets for even an accidental wild slash (not to mention your dangly bits).
In this position, a two handed grasp that you don't to let go of can easily end up as ground grappling and a two handed grasp in ground grappling can be very advantageous. The HUGE caveat is that if you engage in ground grappling, particularly the guard, and your opponent somehow manages to slip his weapon limb free, you've gone from the frying pan to the fire. You're hosed. There are some strategies you can use but they're iffy at best. Of course, it's better than screaming like a little girl and wetting your pants, but still, iffy is iffy.
I agree with Jarrod, find a (improvised if necessary) weapon. God made weapons to nullify the advantages of the other fella. Empty hands are what you use while you try to get a weapon into play. First thing you do is open the measure (distance) draw your concealed firearm and smoke off a few into him until he's no longer a threat. From there you just go down the list. No firearms? Get a longer weapon like a club (cane, umbrella, barstool). No clubs or ranged weapons? Well, your knife might even the odds if you can deploy.
Wall fighting can be an effective element too. Think of it similar to fighting up against the cage in MMA. If you can slam your opponent to the wall, then you can dramatically impact his ability to move, nearly as much as you can on the ground. Yet you retain the flexibility of remaining standing.
Yes, I agree, duel situations are exceedingly rare. However, they DO sometimes happen. They're worth a segment of your Self Defense training, even if it's just a small segment.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Being both a grappler (Judo and C&E) and a knife fella (Bowie), here's my take on it.
Unarmed against a knife, you're borked. You might get lucky (and training can help improve your luck but it's still luck) and capture the knife hand without getting hit too bad. That's really your main goal if escape is not an option. If you can capture the knife hand, then you've got an advantage. However the advantage is at least as much, if not more psychological as physical. You are best off keeping TWO hands on your opponents weapon limb because it's so darn easy for a person to twist out of a single handed grasp. That leaves his "live hand" free for mayhem. Sure it's not bladed mayhem but it'll get the job done nonetheless. But most people won't think of it. Can't count on that though. FMA and SEAA represents an important and growing segment of MA training.
If you can chuck the opponent on the ground, well and good. Lay your knees into him or take the boot to him. Don't let go of your grasp though. Your hamstring and femoral are easy targets for even an accidental wild slash (not to mention your dangly bits).
In this position, a two handed grasp that you don't to let go of can easily end up as ground grappling and a two handed grasp in ground grappling can be very advantageous. The HUGE caveat is that if you engage in ground grappling, particularly the guard, and your opponent somehow manages to slip his weapon limb free, you've gone from the frying pan to the fire. You're hosed. There are some strategies you can use but they're iffy at best. Of course, it's better than screaming like a little girl and wetting your pants, but still, iffy is iffy.
I agree with Jarrod, find a (improvised if necessary) weapon. God made weapons to nullify the advantages of the other fella. Empty hands are what you use while you try to get a weapon into play. First thing you do is open the measure (distance) draw your concealed firearm and smoke off a few into him until he's no longer a threat. From there you just go down the list. No firearms? Get a longer weapon like a club (cane, umbrella, barstool). No clubs or ranged weapons? Well, your knife might even the odds if you can deploy.
Wall fighting can be an effective element too. Think of it similar to fighting up against the cage in MMA. If you can slam your opponent to the wall, then you can dramatically impact his ability to move, nearly as much as you can on the ground. Yet you retain the flexibility of remaining standing.
Yes, I agree, duel situations are exceedingly rare. However, they DO sometimes happen. They're worth a segment of your Self Defense training, even if it's just a small segment.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Ron Kosakowski
Orange Belt
Brian, I liked your blog.
I see you have a sense of practical thinking when it comes to a blade. Blade grappling, standing and on the ground is an area I like to focus on due to the fact it is worse case scenario. Not that longer range with an unorthodox crazy knife weilder is any more fun. In both, my Kuntao and Kali, I try to get my students the mentality to accept the fact that they will be cut and probably cut badly in a confrontation with a knife. Life is not like that picture sequence knife disarms you see in the magazines or on web sites.
In our Kuntao classes, and this may seem crazy a little, when a person is testing we use a real sharp blade. they are told to keep going if they take a cut. Students also know this before they test. By knowing this ahead of time is a step closer to accepting the outcome. It still isn't that crazed knife weilder looking to cut your throat but one must make a martial art represent what goes on in actual combat as close as possible.
By the way, in all the years doing and teaching Kuntao, only 2 people have taken a cut. Nothing bad.
If you think I don't get nervous at each test well, I do!
I see you have a sense of practical thinking when it comes to a blade. Blade grappling, standing and on the ground is an area I like to focus on due to the fact it is worse case scenario. Not that longer range with an unorthodox crazy knife weilder is any more fun. In both, my Kuntao and Kali, I try to get my students the mentality to accept the fact that they will be cut and probably cut badly in a confrontation with a knife. Life is not like that picture sequence knife disarms you see in the magazines or on web sites.
In our Kuntao classes, and this may seem crazy a little, when a person is testing we use a real sharp blade. they are told to keep going if they take a cut. Students also know this before they test. By knowing this ahead of time is a step closer to accepting the outcome. It still isn't that crazed knife weilder looking to cut your throat but one must make a martial art represent what goes on in actual combat as close as possible.
By the way, in all the years doing and teaching Kuntao, only 2 people have taken a cut. Nothing bad.
If you think I don't get nervous at each test well, I do!
CanFightIt
White Belt
Grappling is argued to be one of the most effective ways to defeat your opponent on a 1 on 1 basis.
Knifes usually are not balanced and when thrown have much chance of hitting their target. Either weapon though is a serious risk to a person and so that is why you avoid those situations whenever possible but practice dealing with them for years in the event that you are confronted with a weapon and have no way of avoiding it.
If you are confronted with a weapon then usually it is a combination of strikes, knees, elbows, punches, and kicks along with some joint lock type maneuvers that will enable you to gain control of the weapon rather than just one particular type of counter or technique.
Knifes usually are not balanced and when thrown have much chance of hitting their target. Either weapon though is a serious risk to a person and so that is why you avoid those situations whenever possible but practice dealing with them for years in the event that you are confronted with a weapon and have no way of avoiding it.
If you are confronted with a weapon then usually it is a combination of strikes, knees, elbows, punches, and kicks along with some joint lock type maneuvers that will enable you to gain control of the weapon rather than just one particular type of counter or technique.
lklawson
Grandmaster
If you're a better grappler, sure. I'll take my odds grappling against Joe Sixpack with no training outside of watching WWF. Not so much against a Machado blackbelt.
First, I agree that it's a stupid idea to throw your knife, especially if it is your only weapon.
Second, getting clubbed upside the head by an 8 oz. hunk of steel flying across the room isn't my idea of a good time, even if it doesn't "stick."
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I understand wanting them to have some real experience and overcome their fears, but...I don't agree with this policy!
(Oh, and where do you buy your club's insurance?
)Ron Kosakowski
Orange Belt
I understand your thoughts on this. Of course, live slashing is done after many years in Kuntao. Stationary knife attacks (like robbery or hostage holding) is taught first...and done with a live blade. You can see some of this within this videoI understand wanting them to have some real experience and overcome their fears, but...I don't agree with this policy!
(Oh, and where do you buy your club's insurance?
There is subconscience care being done of course to some degree. Like i said, its to break that fear of steel. you use just a training knife with students and a different mentality appears during a real attack. The idea is to get as close to thr real deal as possible. Thats all we can do as martial art instructors.
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BLACK LION
Black Belt
Screw the knife... get to the guys brain to shut him off!!!! I no longer look at the knife as an extension of the hand/arm but as an extension of ones will. Its a toll of assassination, not a deuling utensil. You have to take away the ability for the brain to tell the arm to stab or slice you. If he is blind and asphyxiating then hes probably not going to be effective at knifing you. If his scrotum is torn and has a broken ankle or knee his intent to stab or slice is out the window. INJURY is the first priority securing the blade or any accomplices is a bi-product. "Going to the ground" is not an option... "staying on the ground is forbidden"... if you get knocked down you better be injuring them on the way down and on the way back up... always assuming there are multiple attackers will solidify that principle. Stay off the ground as much as possible but if you find your base compromised and you are on the ground you better be injuring your way back to your feet ready for his buddies to come running to help. Wrestling-grappling-disarming the knife is dangerous play and could get you seriously injured or killed by them or by yourself...
Injure them first. Injure them last. the blade itself is an inanimate object without a body behind it intent on using it.
Injure them first. Injure them last. the blade itself is an inanimate object without a body behind it intent on using it.
Ron Kosakowski
Orange Belt
Are you saying it is not possible to end up on the ground with a knife weider? We cannot ignore the possibility completely here.
Some of the best knife oriented knife fighting systems have some sort of ground practice with and against a knife for that "just in case" situation. Malaysion, Indonesian and Filipino styles cover this area.
In my past, i have had confrontations like many here have and never ended up on the ground with a weapon but it can occur. A few of us have ended up on the ground in class. Which means the possibility exists. Believe me, I hope it does not happen to me or anyone here but its good to practice just in case. Prevention is the best medicine. :asian:
BLACK LION
Black Belt
I am not saying that you cant end up on the ground... you could alreday be there as a hostage or it could be a female in bed with a stranger or a person tied up in a chair or sitting in a car...the possibilites of where you could be when the blade comes out are endless... but all I am saying is that its about where you should be.... training should consist of getting yourself out of that compromising position as soon and as vicious as possible being completely unreasonable and unwilling to compromise completely... there is a difference btween being on the ground and staying there... staying there is complete compromise and is not something I am completely unwilling to do.... evasion and escape would be my poa and if I have to cut -tear-rip -break-crack-crush to get there I will.
I for one always have a blade...unless I am in the shower or in bed(I have my 1911 handy) I carry a larged fixed blade and 1 or two concealed folders... one in the small of my back and one in my pelvic area... so If I need to use it I can but at the same time I know my body weapons can affectuate ample damage to get me out alive as well...
I just dont train to be like " oh sheet there is a knife" or "oh sheet I have a knife"... I train to effect injury regardless of whats available to me at the moment... it could merely be a rock or a pencil...
BLACK LION
Black Belt
I respect all of you guys by the way and I dont troll from forum to forum picking and peddling. I come here becuase you guys are professional about everything and I can appreciate that.
Ron Kosakowski
Orange Belt
Bro, you have my deepest respect. i like what you say and the way you train. We seem to be on the same page here.:asian:
You would fit well in my school.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
It would be an honor, my friend.
Combatives
White Belt
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If you do not have a knife your best self-defense is turning the other way and running. But if you cannot do this - because of your family, friend, etc. is in danger - I would not grapple nor try to throw a person with a knife. Try it and you will see that there are too many chances to get hit. The simpler, the better.
Block, hold the attackers knife hand with both hands, if possible, Then kick, hit, etc. depending on the situation, angle, etc. that presents itself.
lklawson
Grandmaster
chav buster
Yellow Belt
you have to look at martial arts and think why theres really none who teach you to grappling with knifes and my conclution is beacuse you would be dead.
lklawson
Grandmaster
It's dirt common in Aikido, Silat, and FMA.
That may, in fact, be the outcome, nevertheless, the fact is that lots of martial arts teach various levels of grappling against a knife. Heck, Tomiki Aikido has a whole system of randori based around the practice; Tanto Randori.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
BLACK LION
Black Belt
The knife or sharp object means nothing with out a driving force behind it intent on making hamburger out of you or someone else...
The snap on tool is not the focus... the driving force is the focus which is the brain and the body... If his brain is too busy responding to the lack of air from a crushed trachea the knife becomes useless... if the brain is too busy reacting to a severed optical nerve after an eyeball is popped out then the knife is useless... if the brain is too busy responding to a ruptured testicle then again the tool is useless.... a broken kneck or spine and so on and so forth one after another after another until one is satisfied....
the focus is effecting trauma on whats really dangerous... assume you are gonna get cut anyway but intent on getting to that core and shutting it down... that ruthless determination to act and force throught the threat or threats until they cease to exists.... regardless of whats at stake... if you concentrate on the blade and all the mysticism it harbors then you may very well meet with it as you feared and find yourself cold and lonely as your life juices flood the pavement...
screw the tool... get to the operator... I look at it like machines...or engines or whatever...
Fuel-Air-Spark
fuel- being the drive or intent or will or the body as a machine
Air- being the ability to breath or take in oxygen
Spark- being the heart or the brain or the spine
The snap on tool is not the focus... the driving force is the focus which is the brain and the body... If his brain is too busy responding to the lack of air from a crushed trachea the knife becomes useless... if the brain is too busy reacting to a severed optical nerve after an eyeball is popped out then the knife is useless... if the brain is too busy responding to a ruptured testicle then again the tool is useless.... a broken kneck or spine and so on and so forth one after another after another until one is satisfied....
the focus is effecting trauma on whats really dangerous... assume you are gonna get cut anyway but intent on getting to that core and shutting it down... that ruthless determination to act and force throught the threat or threats until they cease to exists.... regardless of whats at stake... if you concentrate on the blade and all the mysticism it harbors then you may very well meet with it as you feared and find yourself cold and lonely as your life juices flood the pavement...
screw the tool... get to the operator... I look at it like machines...or engines or whatever...
Fuel-Air-Spark
fuel- being the drive or intent or will or the body as a machine
Air- being the ability to breath or take in oxygen
Spark- being the heart or the brain or the spine
lklawson
Grandmaster
Works great... when it works.
The problem is that the human body is resiliant and, frequently, doen't realize it's been injured, even mortally injured. I read of an incident where a LEO dumped 6 00 buck slugs into a suspects heart, damaging it to the point where it no longer functioned, and he still had enough oxygen to brain and muscles and adrenalin in the system to run into the parking lot to play hide-n-seek until he passed out from lack of blood flow and subsequently died. They found him dead hiding behind a car.
There are lots of cases like this. Yes, if you can do enough mechanical damage, such as major joint breaks (like the knees), then you can create a "stop" even if the agressor doesn't know he's injured. The problem is that you HAVE to do that. Crushing the trach is great and all but he still has up to a few minutes of functional opperation where he can continue attacking until his restricted air flow causes him to pass out from lack of oxygen. It's a heck of a long time to be dodging a knife.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. I'm saying that it's not a magic pill. You still have to worry about the knife. If you can capture the knife AND do mechanical/structural damage, that's ideal (outside of of escaping, of course).
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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