Grappling Defense

[chaosomega]

Whoa... that was interesting. I was gonna argue some points, but looks like MJS did it all for me! Anywho... If I wrestled with this girl, she's whoop my sorry a$$. But if she tried my sport with me, she'd get her a$$ whooped, even if it was just sumbission wrestling.

 

[MJS]

Well, that sure was an interesting little debate.!LOL! Oh well, our friends account was closed, so fortunately we wont have to listen to him anymore!

Mike

 

[arnisador]

The account was closed at the user's request in response to suspension of the account by the Admin Team.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[JDenz]

Well maybe we can get back to the topic then. Lol besides it is always cool watching people get in flame wars lol.

 

[MJS]

I second that!! I'm ready to get back to the topic!

Mike

 

[JDenz]

It is almost impossable to catch an elbow to the back of the head agianst a shot to.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by JDenz
It is almost impossable to catch an elbow to the back of the head agianst a shot to.

How so? If an attacker is coming in on me, and I yield out backwards, putting space bewteen me nad the attacker, coming down with an elbow to the skull is very possible, wouldn't it be?

7sm

 

[JDenz]

Not really because a good shot is coming in low so his head will be under your waist level depending on height diffrence. I don't see any way you can hit him with an elbow on the way down. Maybe if you sprawled out stopped his shot and then hit him with an elbow but you would need alot of sprawling training.

 

[7starmantis]

One thing I've done before is just yield backwards and "lead" his head on down to the ground. Kind of finishing the circle he started, just giving enough pressur to the back of his head to keep his momentum going until it is stoped by the ground.

Is this something that grapplers have to train against having done to them?

7sm

 

[Old Tiger]

A grappler or wreslter properly trained will not lead with his head as much as many people do. Their shoots are so well practiced the speed is difficult to deal with. In addition a grappler shooting properly will straighten his back almost upright as soon as he makes contact so that you cannot force him down. In addition they are trained and practice complete commitment to the shoot and if you move back they will move with you and through you. If you move to the side they will have brought their trailing leg along side and will move with you and through you. If you wish to develop good skills both shooting and countering shoots you would be well advised to spend some time and I mean commit some time (not just one workout with five minutes of training) with a high level wrestler. You will find it will revolutionize your understanding of this issue. This is a very important and often overlooked aspect of grappling. If you don't understand this you will end up on your back every time. you may even get slammed unconcious.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by catchevangelist
A grappler or wreslter properly trained will not lead with his head as much as many people do. Their shoots are so well practiced the speed is difficult to deal with. In addition a grappler shooting properly will straighten his back almost upright as soon as he makes contact so that you cannot force him down. In addition they are trained and practice complete commitment to the shoot and if you move back they will move with you and through you. If you move to the side they will have brought their trailing leg along side and will move with you and through you.

As much training and skill as the grappler has in shooting and moving with or through me, I also have the same amount of skill and training in yielding and feel. It would be interesting to work out with a really well trained grappler to see the differences in our counters to each other.

7sm

 

[JDenz]

Definitly it is definitly an eye opener. I have never seen a martial artest that hasn't trained with wrestlers or had wrestled themselves stop more then 1 out of ten shots. Wrestlers also train in avoiding the shot and changing the shooters direction. It isn't like wrestling is a crap shoot whoever shoots first gets the takedown.

 

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
As much training and skill as the grappler has in shooting and moving with or through me, I also have the same amount of skill and training in yielding and feel. It would be interesting to work out with a really well trained grappler to see the differences in our counters to each other.

7sm

I meant no offense with my post. I see you, as having trained to defend against a good shot, as the exception. That is all I am saying. Many schools begin training or sparring on their knees. I can see that for development in certain skills. But some of these and others never train the takedown be it either performing a shot or defending against it. And I don't mean just in a wrestling and controlled environment. It should be trained including striking, kicking etc. So that the shot becomes part of your game. Most wrestlers must make adjustments for this too. They have not traditionally trained in an enviroment in which they may be punched or kicked or kneed as they come in. They have to rewire their brains to keep their hands in front of their face as they shoot in response to that threat. That is just one example. Thanks for the response and the interesting repartee'.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by catchevangelist
I meant no offense with my post. I see you, as having trained to defend against a good shot, as the exception. That is all I am saying.

No worries, no offense taken. Its hard to respond on this medium without getting emotions confused.

I do try to train as realistically as possible in all possible situations.

Originally posted by JDenz
Definitely it is definitly an eye opener. I have never seen a martial artest that hasn't trained with wrestlers or had wrestled themselves stop more then 1 out of ten shots. Wrestlers also train in avoiding the shot and changing the shooters direction. It isn't like wrestling is a crap shoot whoever shoots first gets the takedown.

I'm not trying to offend you, I don't think it is a crap shoot, but your almost implying that stopping the shoot is a crap shoot itself. Neither would be, they both rely on serious training and skill. I routinely workout with a BJJ guy and I can tell you I get way more stops than 1 in 10.

7sm

 

[chaosomega]

Whizzer!

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by chaosomega
Whizzer!

Can anyone explain ??

7sm

 

[Kyle]

I routinely workout with a BJJ guy and I can tell you I get way more stops than 1 in 10.

Being a BJJ guy myself, I can say that the vast majority of BJJ guys are not good at takedowns. You really ought to try your technique against a good wrestler. I think my takedowns are decent, for a BJJ guy , but I am always amazed at the takedown abilities of a good wrestler when they train at my school.

A whizzer is a wrestling term for overhook control of an arm.

- Kyle

 

[arnisador]

My BJJ instructor has also said that wrestling has a clear edge in takedowns while BJJ is still better on the ground. He works with a local college wrestling team to improve his wrestling skills--meaning principally his takedowns.

 

[7starmantis]

I hear that, I should have said that he has just recently turned to BJJ he wrestled through high school and college. He's a big grappler, I'm not that knowledgable about the grappling arts, but he prides himself on his takedowns.

Never-the-less, it seems a little one sided the idea that shooting is unstopable. If that is so why isn't everyone in the world using that technique? I mean its easy to say, "My art is the best" but that doesn't make it so. The fact is that a takedown is just like an armbreak, or say a simple jab. They are both relient on the training and skill level of the performer, AND on the training and skill level of the receiver.

7sm

 

[JDenz]

It isn't my art is best thing. Wrestling is 90 percent takedowns and defending the takedown. Espically at higher levels. Every match in wrestling is decided on the feet. A good shot is hard to beat that is why coleman is so good. Lets face it he has almost no skill punching and kicking on the feet and he has probley less submission skills then anyone lol. The reason that it is not a technique that everyone can use is it takes serious practice as well as being gifted athleticly. I wrestled in high school and collage and at the collage level there were guys that just were so much better then me on the feet that I couldn't stop or even slow down there takedowns. A takedown is not the same as an arm break. I think a take down is like about equilvent to 3/4 of the punches kicks and foot work in a striking are that is how much you work on them.