C
chinkoobake
Guest
that's something weak people like to say...
don't bring up the gracie, gracie thing as 'proof'. they are still tough, strong men who happen to be very very skilled. there is a difference
Grappling Defense
- Thread starter 7starmantis
- Start date
that's something weak people like to say...
don't bring up the gracie, gracie thing as 'proof'. they are still tough, strong men who happen to be very very skilled. there is a difference
First off, are you calling me weak?? If so, you need to get a clue, because it has been proven time and time again, that its tech. not size that matters. Second, I will bring up the Gracie thing, becuase it is true. Its happened to more people than just Gracie. Vitor Belfort beat Scott Ferrozzo, who greatly out weighed him. Ruas beat Paul Varleans.
Dude, you need to re-read my post. I never said that the Gracies were weak. I said, that that compared to some of the people whom they have fought, there has been a huge size difference. Sure, Royce and Tank are about the same height, but a huge difference in weight and strength.
Maybe you should know a little about grappling before you make comments like that.
Mike
J
JDenz
Guest
Ya skill does mean alot.
psi_radar
Black Belt
I've played around with this a bit with my instructor. Knowing your opponent and their fighting style will affect how effective a takedown or a sprawl will be. Stand up fighters, and I'm speakng from a Kenpoist point of view, have a slight disadvantage in executing the sprawl since their posture is so upright. When I wrestled, it was a lot faster to sprawl from my already bent position onto my opponent rather than when I try it now from a neutral fighting stance.
That said, if you're opponent knows it's coming, that time differential can be overcome by using a little anticipation. I only was successful a few times in wrapping my instructor's legs and taking him down once he knew what I was up to. Plus, he was being really nice and not punting my head on the way in, or crushing my spine with an elbow. Granted, I'm not as fast on my takedowns as I used to be, but I still felt incredibly vulnerable to strikes as I shot in. I think the sprawl + an elbow is a devastating defense if you've practiced enough to match the speed of the grappler.
That said, if you're opponent knows it's coming, that time differential can be overcome by using a little anticipation. I only was successful a few times in wrapping my instructor's legs and taking him down once he knew what I was up to. Plus, he was being really nice and not punting my head on the way in, or crushing my spine with an elbow. Granted, I'm not as fast on my takedowns as I used to be, but I still felt incredibly vulnerable to strikes as I shot in. I think the sprawl + an elbow is a devastating defense if you've practiced enough to match the speed of the grappler.
C
chinkoobake
Guest
A) wtf? I didn't call you weak, but you are displaying a weak mind...
B) My point was, and is, that the fantasy that technique can somehow negate the advantage of size and strength is a dangerous one. I hope you find out the hard way...
C) I don't know your grappling background and you don't know mine, so I guess I'm being presumptuous in believing that I have forgotten more about grappling than you are ever likely to know
J
JDenz
Guest
wow a little anger
C
chinkoobake
Guest
First of all, any school child knows that anecdotal evidence is proof of nothing more than personal experience. So get that straight.
Next, if you had bothered to read, you would see that nowhere did I state or imply that technique is not important (of course).
Obviously, if the difference between two parties in terms of technique is enormous, that will be a key influence in the outcome. Just as if the difference between two parties in terms of strength and size is enormous, that will be a key influence in the outcome. When the differences between opponents narrows, the influence of size and strength (or technique) plays an ever more significant role. That is why there are weight classes in wrestling, which I was actively involved in at a highly competitive level for 20 years.
If you fail to see that it has been proven by the Gracies many times, then thats your problem.
This above quote from you sounds like it to me.
Yes, there are weight classes in wrestling, so of course that would apply. However in wrestling, there are no submissions, only pins, which is why they rely on strength so much. If you watch the first few UFC, you'll notice that there were no weight classes, and Gracie defeated guys much bigger and stronger. Take Dan Severn for example. He was a wrestler, had no submission skills. Sure the fight went on for 30+ min. But who won? Gracie. Why? He used tech., waited until Severn made a mistake and took advantage of it.
Comparing wrestling to BJJ is like comparing an apple to an orange. They are both fruits, but they taste different. Wrestling and BJJ are both grappling arts, but they taste different too.
Mike
is anyone else sensing quite a bit of ego in this thread?
C
chinkoobake
Guest
So your argument rests on your adulation of the gracies, who you consider puny and weak?
J
JDenz
Guest
Ya both people are pushing there arguements to the extreme they are both right though. Extreme strength can be overwealming look at Coleman and Sapp. For tecnique you can look to Royce, Newton, Sperry.
I think that the skill level is a hundred times what it was back in the day when you had Royce beating on the helpless strong guys with no skill. Strength plays such an important part in fighting now. Guys like Hughes would eat Royce alive now a days. Grappling is elvolving so much and every tournament it gets better.
I think that the skill level is a hundred times what it was back in the day when you had Royce beating on the helpless strong guys with no skill. Strength plays such an important part in fighting now. Guys like Hughes would eat Royce alive now a days. Grappling is elvolving so much and every tournament it gets better.
Show me ANYWHERE in my posts that I said the above comment??? I have never said that they are puny and weak...YOU did. If you compare them to guys like Coleman, Kerr, Baroni, who are all juiced up, then yeah, how can you say that Gracie is bigger and stronger than them? Those guys are relying on that to win their fights. Royce is strong, but he doesnt look like those guys does he? There is a huge difference in the way those guys fight compared to Royce.
Again, please do not put words into my mouth.
Mike
So, do you think that Huges would eat Sperry alive also? People mistake guys like Sapp, as having good tech. Sure, dont get me wrong, the guy is definately jacked, but he is going to rely 100% on his size to beat the person into submission. If what you're saying is true, then let me ask you this. Why study ANY MA, if the mear size and strength of your opp. is going to determine the outcome? If that was the case, then there would be no arts, cuz all you'd need to defeat your opp. was to just be bigger than them. Would you also say that guys like Sapp, Coleman, Kerr, and Huges would also eat Rickson alive?? Now, he's nowhere as big as Sapp. He is still strong, but its obvious, or at least should be to anyone, that there is a huge difference there.
Mike
No offense, but I really dont see any more "ego" as I do in any of the other threads. Look at some of the Kenpo threads. Especially the ones back in the day when Clyde would post.
The debate here, is concerning size vs. strength. Of course its going to be hard for someone who comes from an art such as wrestling, where you need to rely on strength to realize that arts like BJJ are more tech. based.
Mike
Here is another good comparison. Look at Kimo. Now when this guy first came into the NHB fights, he was a brawler. Look at when he fought Royce in UFC 3. IMO, he didnt show any tech. he showed how to brawl, period. What was the outcome? Sure Royce won, but he was unable to continue. The fact remains that he still used tech. to beat his opp. Now, look at Kimo today. He trains with one of the best BJJ guys around, Joe Morera (sp) His skill level went up 100%! Look at his fight with Tank. He stayed relaxed, took him down and submitted him with a choke. Kimo is a big guy, but its very apparent to me that he is using more tech. in his fights now, than when he first entered the ring.
Mike
Mike
C
chinkoobake
Guest
I'm sure your mouth is too full of graciballs to fit anything else.
C
chinkoobake
Guest
If you claim that strength and toughness had nothing to do with their victories, what else is to be inferred?
C
chinkoobake
Guest
I hope you know more about bjj than you do about wrestling!
J
JDenz
Guest
No I think that Sperry would beat hughes because he is bigger and stronger and alot more well rounded then Royce. I think Sperry would beat Royce. I am saying that alot of strength can overcome technique. Look at Sapp he was about three inches from literaly killing Nog who is probley the most tecniqual fighter at heavey weight. Same thing goes in the street if you are about 150 pounds and you fight a guy about 350 and he can knock you out in one punch but you are alot faster and can get in and out on him and hit him. Which is better? Who is going to win? Who knows if you fight a perfect fight and chop him down you win if you slip on some loose gravel miss a parry and he knocks you out you lose. Which is better depends on your views. I don't think you can really argue about that.
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